Bi wired already?

[D-MAN]

"Just imagine -- all of your "music" -- being squished through such an itty bitty teensy weensy little wire.

Think."

Dean - and this from you of all people! You {should} know the value of using high quality components in the signal path.

All of the components that you mentioned (except the fuse)are used specifically to ALTER the flow of current based in some cases on frequency. You also should know as much as anyone as to the effect of different coils and types of windings therein that also are better than others, like litz wire coils being preferred over straight, and large gauge coils being preferred over smaller wire gauges, etc...

All fuses have an debilitating effect on the signal, and are particularily bad as they merely use pressure contact on both ends to complete the circuit. Personally, they should be removed from the crossover if present IMO.

So your argument is not sensible to me - and I expect BETTER OF YOU...

Next time, just Think.

DM

[Deang]

I was just trying to make a point. What is the point in hanging a firehose off of a staw? Your runs would have to be pretty long before you might start being concerned about it.

[meuge]

----------------

On 10/14/2004 11:33:24 AM drick wrote:

WOO HOO!! success!! just kidding, but i'm glad to hear that i'm not going down the wrong path on something!

Let me ask you this, if i was to return all my expensive cables, and go with something else (i.e. cheaper), would it make sense to upgrade to the next level (stage 4) of power filter? that one is only $100 more (list)

----------------

Well here's a question - how much money would you save if your speaker cables cost you around $65

*50ft of Acoustic Research Pro II is what I use and is around $30-35 shipped from accessories4less:

http://www.accessories4less.com/Amazing/itemdesc.asp?CartId=9268-EVEREST-052KOXRF390&ic=PR%2D222&cc=&tpc=

*Plus you need 12 bananas which I buy here:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=263-584

I like crimp-on terminals much more than compression terminals because they give me a feeling of a more secure connection, but you can browse for others.

Take a look at this Furman unit at partsexpress.com.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-755

It's only $277 w. free shipping and is probably all the power conditioning your rack will ever need if your circuit is a 20amp one. If your circuit is 15A, you just need this $191 unit:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-752

Or if you're in the mood, you can go for this conditioner which also does voltage regulation for about $500 (a bit excessive in my opinion):

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-756

See how it compares to the price of your Monster unit. From a quick Google search it seems that you probably paid $400-450 for the HTS3600. Perhaps if you save money on the power conditioner, as well as the speaker wire, you can upgrade your front end equipment (receiver or processor/preamp/amp), or get Dean to build you upgraded RF-7 crossovers.

Btw - you haven't told us what equipment you're going to be using to drive the 7s.

[D-MAN]

Stangely enough, I trust you and value your opinion, too (?!)

Go figure...

DM

[drick]

----------------

On 10/14/2004 2:39:56 PM meuge wrote:

----------------

On 10/14/2004 11:33:24 AM drick wrote:

WOO HOO!! success!! just kidding, but i'm glad to hear that i'm not going down the wrong path on something!

Let me ask you this, if i was to return all my expensive cables, and go with something else (i.e. cheaper), would it make sense to upgrade to the next level (stage 4) of power filter? that one is only $100 more (list)

----------------

Well here's a question - how much money would you save if your speaker cables cost you around $65

*50ft of Acoustic Research Pro II is what I use and is around $30-35 shipped from accessories4less:

http://www.accessories4less.com/Amazing/itemdesc.asp?CartId=9268-EVEREST-052KOXRF390&ic=PR%2D222&cc=&tpc=

*Plus you need 12 bananas which I buy here:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=263-584

I like crimp-on terminals much more than compression terminals because they give me a feeling of a more secure connection, but you can browse for others.

Take a look at this Furman unit at partsexpress.com.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-755

It's only $277 w. free shipping and is probably all the power conditioning your rack will ever need if your circuit is a 20amp one. If your circuit is 15A, you just need this $191 unit:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-752

Or if you're in the mood, you can go for this conditioner which also does voltage regulation for about $500 (a bit excessive in my opinion):

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-756

See how it compares to the price of your Monster unit. From a quick Google search it seems that you probably paid $400-450 for the HTS3600. Perhaps if you save money on the power conditioner, as well as the speaker wire, you can upgrade your front end equipment (receiver or processor/preamp/amp), or get Dean to build you upgraded RF-7 crossovers.

Btw - you haven't told us what equipment you're going to be using to drive the 7s.

----------------

well, if i bagged all of the cables i bought, probably closer to $500+ would be recovered. the power converter was something like that, so in theory those 2 combined would be close to $1000.

sorry, that info is another string. there will be a Sony STR-DA9000ES pushing this entire system

[D-MAN]

----------------

On 10/14/2004 2:11:53 PM DeanG wrote:

I was just trying to make a point. What is the point in hanging a firehose off of a staw? Your runs would have to be pretty long before you might start being concerned about it.

----------------

Dean, always a good time "arguing" with you!

Yes, your point is understood. I like the analogy. Here's my angle: The point is to get to the straw with the firehose. "get there the first-est with the most-est".

A straw for the full length of the run performs less as well as the straw fed by the firehose (or the firehose alone with no straw involved at all). Every little bit of resistance/reactance that you can get rid of is a good thing. You CAN hear it. Even if you have to go through a straw, the straw section (usually short) has a loss associated with it anyway, so why compound the loss by essentially lengthening the straw the whole length of the run? Losses are additive. It doesn't make sense, I would rather reduce the losses associated in getting to the straw portion and keeping the loss as small as possible...theoretically, the only major signal/current loss that I have to contend with is the "straw" portion...

If I have 1 short straw section of wiring, and a firehose "feeding" it, would we not all agree that there SHOULD be less loss associated in the firehose section even though it is many times the length of the straw portion?

So we essentially start out at the more-resistive straw section with more current than otherwise. That will reduce the overall loss through the straw section as it starts out with a higher value in the first place. The loss through it is still the same, but more current is going through it.

Electrically lets say the straw is an 20 Ohm resistor.

Feed it 4 volts at 3 mA. Measure the output current.

Now feed it 4 volts at 4 mA. Measure the output current.

The reactance has not changed, the CURRENT changed and more is going through the resister. The loss ratios remain the same.

It doesn't matter (in this example) WHAT the crossover and the speakers internal wires are; it matters what the current values GETTING to the crossover are...the more, the better.

DM

[colterphoto1]

I dunno, I just strip and 'tin' the ends by applying solder to keep wires from fraying. Why spend hard earned $$$ for gold-plated, super jumbo 'Monster' fancy-schmancy ends that you'll never see or hear again.

Re your wiring question, my wires are the brand ESOTERIC, totally green inside, unlike my 16 ga rat shack zip cord- what gives?

[psg]

----------------

On 10/14/2004 3:39:20 PM D-MAN wrote:

Electrically lets say the straw is an 20 Ohm resistor.

Feed it 4 volts at 3 mA. Measure the output current.

Now feed it 4 volts at 4 mA. Measure the output current.

If you put 4 volts across a 20 Ohm resistor, 0.2 amps will go through it.

How do you plan to limit it to 3 or 4 mA?

[drick]

----------------

On 10/14/2004 7:34:29 PM colterphoto1 wrote:

I dunno, I just strip and 'tin' the ends by applying solder to keep wires from fraying. Why spend hard earned $$$ for gold-plated, super jumbo 'Monster' fancy-schmancy ends that you'll never see or hear again.

Re your wiring question, my wires are the brand ESOTERIC, totally green inside, unlike my 16 ga rat shack zip cord- what gives?

----------------

well, the thing is, i already spent the money. i just want to make sure i couldn't have bought something else that was better for a similiar amount. if i was on a budget, or worried that i got gouged i might waffle a bit more, but these are already "on the way", so i'll just see how it goes.

[meuge]

DMAN - I decided to invest the time to explain why high gauge wire resistance does not matter.

I also think that Drick might find this information useful in making his decisions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Power (P) = V^2/R (voltage squared divided by resistance)

Now in a serial circuit like that of the wire+speaker, R can be broken down to Rw (wire R) plus Rs (speaker R) and the formula becomes:

P = V^2/(Rw+Rs)

Now, let's assume that we accept the speaker R at 5% of the speaker R (like 0.4 ohms for an 8-ohm load). We will compare two P values -> P1 where Rw=0 and P2 where Rw=0.05Rs. Thus:

P1=V^2/(Rs)

and

P2=V^2/(1.05Rs)

To calculate power loss as a result of adding the wire, we will use this formula:

-dB = 10*log (P2/P1) = 10*log <(V2/Rs)/(V2/1.05Rs)> = 10*log (1.05) = - 0.21 dB

delta P ~ delta SPL and thus -dB (SPL) ~ -0.21dB

Now... the main concern about the wire impedance is that at higher resistance, the resistance of the wire begins altering the impedance curve of the speaker itself. Let's assume a speaker whose impedance drops to 2 ohms at low frequencies. This means a wire whose resistance is less than 0.1 ohms will be within the 5% margin and will produce a maximum of 0.2dB deviation from the natural values of the speaker. If you do some research, you'll realize that a human ear is unable to hear the difference of 0.2dB at ANY frequency (even at 2500-3000 Hz where the speaker impedance will never reach 2 ohms, at least not for Klipsch speakers).

Furthermore, the 5% figure I quoted is actually very liberal. Resistivity of copper at room temperature is around 1.6ohms/1000ft for 12-gauge stranded copper wire. For a single 15 foot 12-gauge speaker wire, the resistance is around 0.025ohms. For a speaker which will drop to 2.5 ohms (for simplicity's sake) at the most sensitive frequencies (midrange), the resistance of the wire will represent about 1% of the total resistance. Thus it will cause a power loss of:

-dB = 10*log (1.01) = -0.04 dB

Now, I know that not even an ardent audiophile will claim that they can hear a 0.04dB difference.

I mean no disrespect DMAN, but when you said that the wire matters regardless of the resitance of the components inside the speaker, you were right. The problem is that this difference is so small that it is unnoticeable by human senses and thus irrelevant.

[drick]

----------------

On 10/14/2004 10:49:52 AM meuge wrote:

To answer your first question, I'd say biwiring is probably unnecessary, but if you have the money there really isn't a reason NOT to do it - it's not going to hurt anything. Just remember to remove the brass jumper from the binding posts if you're biwiring.

As for the Monster HTS power center, I hear they're good units, albeit overpriced. One can find really nice 20A Furman power conditioners for a couple of hundred, and while Monster is a newcomer, Furman is THE authority on power conditioning equipment. But if you don't want to bother with returning it and getting other stuff, the HTS 3600 will work just fine.

----------------

meuge,

what would a comparable furman unit to monsters 3600 or their 5100 which is where i am going to end up after i return all of my THX optical cables probably?

maybe the pm-pro series II?

[meuge]

----------------

meuge,

what would a comparable furman unit to monsters 3600 or their 5100 which is where i am going to end up after i return all of my THX optical cables probably?

maybe the pm-pro series II?

----------------

I was going through the Monstercable website to find some specs for the HTS3600 aside from the maximum power handling (to compare to Furman, who publish every last spec) and even in the manual I couldn't find anything.

I would say that FURMAN PL-PLUSD II SMP ($191) is probably as much as you'd ever want to hang on a 15A socket. The only thing is that unlike Monstercable, Furman units do not clean coaxial cable lines. I have a Monster HTS800 ($70) - their cheapest unit which I got before I learned about Furman, and it does a great job cleaning up the picture on the analog cable TV. However, going for a $500 MonsterPower unit instead of a $200 Furman just to clean coax is probably overkill. If you're not on satellite or digital cable you can always buy an HTS800 to clean the cable, and still save over $200... or better yet - switch to digital cable

P.S. Another important point is this - don't be in a hurry to buy expensive interconnects (like expensive optical or coaxial digital) or RCA analog cables. While the quality of the interconnects matters a lot more than the quality of the speaker wire, Monster is definitely not the way to go here as well. You could have excellent Acoustic Research Master-series interconnects for a lot less than the monster units, and I doubt you'd ever need something better.

P.P.S. While you read the above paragraph, take what I say with a grain of salt - some of the silver-wire-based cables that cost a lot more than Moster may indeed be a significant improvement. As a matter of fact I am currently working on my own silver-wire-based interconnects (all of my cables are DIY). But I don't think I'd buy them at their retail prices (I will probably wind up spending around $100 to build the two pairs of unbalanced analog RCA cables I need, using 28-gauge silver.

I have never heard silver-based cables, so I am primarily building these out of curiousity, to see if they actually live up to the hype. Plus I like building things in general.

[drick]

I was going through the Monstercable website to find some specs for the HTS3600 aside from the maximum power handling (to compare to Furman, who publish every last spec) and even in the manual I couldn't find anything.

I would say that FURMAN PL-PLUSD II SMP ($191) is probably as much as you'd ever want to hang on a 15A socket. The only thing is that unlike Monstercable, Furman units do not clean coaxial cable lines. I have a Monster HTS800 ($70) - their cheapest unit which I got before I learned about Furman, and it does a great job cleaning up the picture on the analog cable TV. However, going for a $500 MonsterPower unit instead of a $200 Furman just to clean coax is probably overkill. If you're not on satellite or digital cable you can always buy an HTS800 to clean the cable, and still save over $200... or better yet - switch to digital cable

P.S. Another important point is this - don't be in a hurry to buy expensive interconnects (like expensive optical or coaxial digital) or RCA analog cables. While the quality of the interconnects matters a lot more than the quality of the speaker wire, Monster is definitely not the way to go here as well. You could have excellent Acoustic Research Master-series interconnects for a lot less than the monster units, and I doubt you'd ever need something better.

P.P.S. While you read the above paragraph, take what I say with a grain of salt - some of the silver-wire-based cables that cost a lot more than Moster may indeed be a significant improvement. As a matter of fact I am currently working on my own silver-wire-based interconnects (all of my cables are DIY). But I don't think I'd buy them at their retail prices (I will probably wind up spending around $100 to build the two pairs of unbalanced analog RCA cables I need, using 28-gauge silver.

I have never heard silver-based cables, so I am primarily building these out of curiousity, to see if they actually live up to the hype. Plus I like building things in general.

----------------

I couldn't even get the (*&%)(*^) manuals to download earlier!

I am on Direct TV digital satellite, and just got the HD DTV DVR as well, so that does pose an interesting dilemma now. I'll never go to digital cable, i love DTV.

p.s. I just got done buying glass fibre interconnects (http://stores.ebay.com/24-7-MINIDISCS_W0QQsspagenameZl2QQtZkm ) that are 1/3 the cost of the THX monster cables i had before, so i'll be returning those next week. That just leaves the DVI / HDMI interconnects at this point. I looked at Acoustic Research's website, and they don't offer either of these connectors, so that kind of rules them out.

p.p.s. you are way over my head on that one, i'm going to just agree with you on that.

[scriven]

Drick,

In his pps meuge is talking about building interconnect cables using silver for the conductor instead of copper. Silver has a higher conductivity that copper. The downside is that silver is a precious metal and costs big $$$$.

[drick]

----------------

On 10/15/2004 1:24:00 AM scriven wrote:

Drick,

In his pps meuge is talking about building interconnect cables using silver for the conductor instead of copper. Silver has a higher conductivity that copper. The downside is that silver is a precious metal and costs big $$$$.

----------------

Scriven, now THAT makes sense. Thanks for translating.

Wouldn't that kind of defeat the whole purpose of going to "cheap" non name brand cables?

[drick]

the luxury (or curse) i have is that i don't actually HAVE any of this gear yet. we move into our new house in 15 days, and i was trying to get ahead of this. unfortunately, this seems to be completely subjective to the listener.

i am REALLY curious now, and have contacted Sony, Klipsch, and Monster Cable to see what their official responses are.

----------------

ok, 1st "official" response received back by one of my vendors.

According to Klipsch Tech Support:

Email 1 -

"The flagship RF-7 and RC-7 along with most all of our bookshelf, center and floorstanding Reference Series speakers have the capability for bi-wire or bi-amp wiring with the two sets of speaker connectors. From the factory we ship these with the jumper straps attached and if you do bi-wire these with the cable you purchased, just remove the jumper straps and tuck them away with your owners manual.

Yes, there likely is a 50/50 opinion about bi-wire, speaker wire in general, and of course Heritage Vs Reference Series products among some other varying views on the Forum (a great resource for most things...lots of great folk on there).

Among the people here in tech support and some of our engineers, they do bi-wire as most prefer this to standard single wire connection. I think you would appreciate this with the RF-7 and RC-7's."

Email 2 -

Thanks for your reply and we do thank you for your recent purchase of Klipsch speakers.

Since our engineers go to the extra time and expense to design and configure the crossover networks for bi-wire capability...yes, I would use the bi-wire configuration. This will typically also allow the amplifiers to operate and function more efficiently too...an extra benefit.

Thank you again for the email and I hope you enjoy your new speakers for many years to come.

[colterphoto1]

okay, even IF bi-wiring improves the sound emanating from the speakers, pray tell how on earth does it improve amplifier performance, other than possibly the infintessimal effect of lowering the impedence load ever-so-slightly?

""Email 2 -

Thanks for your reply and we do thank you for your recent purchase of Klipsch speakers.

Since our engineers go to the extra time and expense to design and configure the crossover networks for bi-wire capability...yes, I would use the bi-wire configuration. This will typically also allow the amplifiers to operate and function more efficiently too...an extra benefit.

Thank you again for the email and I hope you enjoy your new speakers for many years to come."

And in what ways are the crossover network configured that would make any difference whether you bi-wired or not?? IMHO, it's still all snake oil.

[drick]

----------------

On 10/15/2004 10:42:10 AM colterphoto1 wrote:

okay, even IF bi-wiring improves the sound emanating from the speakers, pray tell how on earth does it improve amplifier performance, other than possibly the infintessimal effect of lowering the impedence load ever-so-slightly?

""Email 2 -

Thanks for your reply and we do thank you for your recent purchase of Klipsch speakers.

Since our engineers go to the extra time and expense to design and configure the crossover networks for bi-wire capability...yes, I would use the bi-wire configuration. This will typically also allow the amplifiers to operate and function more efficiently too...an extra benefit.

Thank you again for the email and I hope you enjoy your new speakers for many years to come."

And in what ways are the crossover network configured that would make any difference whether you bi-wired or not?? IMHO, it's still all snake oil.

----------------

colter, i'm just passing it on. it does make me feel a LITTLE better that the vendor recommends this as well. that would take the greedy sales guy theory and diminish it a bit. it doesn't speak to the religious war or brand name cables vs. brand x cables theory, but i wouldn't expect him to speak to that, it's not his product or job. it takes the dumb consumer theory, and..

well, i guess i'm still a dumb consumer.

[colterphoto1]

I dunno about you 'straw' guys, but me, I carry a FIREHOSE!!

LOL sorry it was just too easy! IndyKlipschFan knows of the prowess of me and my Bros!

Michael

[D-MAN]

Well, I know that I'm beating a dead horse here, but let me end my argument by stating the following...

The very same physics that provide a particular wire to perform as a coil are also the very same physics that effect the performance of speaker and interconnect cabling.

Same-o-same-o. Aguing about the values is therefore pointless. If you can coil your wire up and alter its frequency behavior, then isn't there some issues that you are not considering as "important"?

{end of rant}

DM