meuge Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 ---------------- On 10/15/2004 11:42:01 AM D-MAN wrote: Well, I know that I'm beating a dead horse here, but let me end my argument by stating the following... The very same physics that provide a particular wire to perform as a coil are also the very same physics that effect the performance of speaker and interconnect cabling. Same-o-same-o. Aguing about the values is therefore pointless. If you can coil your wire up and alter its frequency behavior, then isn't there some issues that you are not considering as "important"? {end of rant} ---------------- Nope, DMAN, there actually aren't. I can't say there is no more science left to explore as far as electricity is concerned, but we've (the humanity as a whole) pretty much got it down. If you like your cables, all the power to you - if it doesn't hurt you financially I cannot see any reason for you not to get them, if that's what pleases you. Psychological factors are a very important part of any purchase and are neither abnormal, nor something to be discounted. But for those who have shallow pockets, rationality is more than a luxury, it's a necessity. P.S. Just to answer some points in your post: "The very same physics that provide a particular wire to perform as a coil are also the very same physics that effect the performance of speaker and interconnect cabling." Absolutely! "If you can coil your wire up and alter its frequency behavior, then isn't there some issues that you are not considering as "important"?" Well, coiling up the wire will allow it to become an inductor (I think that's the term), which is still very much in line with the theory. Btw... if the wire is shielded, the effect will disappear. "Aguing about the values is therefore pointless." I fail to see how this follows logically. I was making a point and I think I was successful at doing so. If you like fancy cables, it's your right and I never told you to get rid of them. But you essentially told me: "Well, you're right... so that makes you wrong." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmdridq Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 "Since our engineers go to the extra time and expense to design and configure the crossover networks for bi-wire capability...yes, I would use the bi-wire configuration. This will typically also allow the amplifiers to operate and function more efficiently too...an extra benefit." Crock. Notice his stated reason for recommending the use of bi-wiring is because their "engineers go to the extra time and expense....blah blah blah." So what? He never says it will sound better. And that comment about amplifiers operating more efficiently? B.S. This guy must own a copper mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 And to kill the already dead horse, here's a diagram to think about: Essentially, biwiring lowers the resistance of the circuit by employing two wires for the large part of it. However, as we've already seen, the resistance of the wiring is not an important issue when using 12-gauge copper cable over runs less then a few hundred feet. P.S. The reason why Klipsch will passively support biwiring is in order to avoid being labeled as not providing the option by the people who believe in it. Plus, the dual inputs provide an option for biamping (passive; or active if you take out the crossover), which as far as I know has been objectively shown to be an improvement (although I do not know the theory behind it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drick Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 ---------------- On 10/15/2004 12:03:41 PM cmdridq wrote: "Since our engineers go to the extra time and expense to design and configure the crossover networks for bi-wire capability...yes, I would use the bi-wire configuration. This will typically also allow the amplifiers to operate and function more efficiently too...an extra benefit." Crock. Notice his stated reason for recommending the use of bi-wiring is because their "engineers go to the extra time and expense....blah blah blah." So what? He never says it will sound better. And that comment about amplifiers operating more efficiently? B.S. This guy must own a copper mine. ---------------- Well, that is probably not the case, as folks in tech suport as a whole don't tend to be the highest up on the food chain financially. At any rate, at least someone that wears a klipsch badge was willing to make a recommendation, and that's what i wanted. Let's agree to disagree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 ---------------- On 10/15/2004 12:47:18 PM drick wrote: Well, that is probably not the case, as folks in tech suport as a whole don't tend to be the highest up on the food chain financially. At any rate, at least someone that wears a klipsch badge was willing to make a recommendation, and that's what i wanted. Let's agree to disagree! ---------------- Drick - marketing is a legitimate reason to support a certain product. It's the same reason why Klipsch is wired with Monstercable -> not because the wiring is better somehow, but because of name recognition. People recognizer Monstercable, and they also recognize biwiring. It doesn't take anything away from Klipsch -> I am and will be a Klipsch fanatic, but one has to see the difference between marketing and engineering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drick Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 ---------------- On 10/15/2004 12:57:30 PM meuge wrote: Drick - marketing is a legitimate reason to support a certain product. It's the same reason why Klipsch is wired with Monstercable -> not because the wiring is better somehow, but because of name recognition. People recognizer Monstercable, and they also recognize biwiring. It doesn't take anything away from Klipsch -> I am and will be a Klipsch fanatic, but one has to see the difference between marketing and engineering. ---------------- i am in complete agreement with you on that meuge, no questions about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 ---------------- On 10/15/2004 11:52:31 AM meuge wrote: Well, coiling up the wire will allow it to become an inductor (I think that's the term), which is still very much in line with the theory. Btw... if the wire is shielded, the effect will disappear. ---------------- Ok, I'm gonna DIG up the already-dead horse and beat it some more: Who uses SHIELDED speaker wire?! The point is, ITS NOT SHIELDED. Neither is the traditional AC zip cord. But that's neither here-nor-there... You are missing my point. Wire used in cables and interconnects is an INDUCTOR whether it's coiled or not! It's also a resistor, regardless of length employed. It's also a capacitor when current is applied as it has a dielectric separating two oppositely charged components. The SAME wire has inductance and capacitance and resistance values ALREADY INHERENT IN IT by its very nature, compounded by length and diameter, altered by strand count, strand winding style, insulation type, dialectric, metalurgy! That is what needs to be considered. Most speaker cables are also unshielded, in particular the 2 wire stuff (and zip-type) in common use. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 DMAN - I give up. There is absolutely no evidence in the world I could provide, and no formulas I could quote that would stop you somehow arguing otherwise. The point is that I presented evidence, and you told me it doesn't apply. Ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 ---------------- On 10/15/2004 2:25:52 PM meuge wrote: DMAN - I give up. There is absolutely no evidence in the world I could provide, and no formulas I could quote that would stop you somehow arguing otherwise. The point is that I presented evidence, and you told me it doesn't apply. Ok. ---------------- Dude, don't give up - no matter what, someone is going to read all these views and come up with a conclusion of (hopefully) their own. So really, I see it as you and I are providing a valuable service by presenting our differing views. Just because I disagree doesn't mean that you're wrong... I've blathered on for thousands of words now on the wire thing, because I think that the pro-wire side should also be heard, to provide a balance to the debate. There is never going to be a consensus on this subject, but there are alot of varying experiences here by forum members concerning wire that is a valuable resource for others. if everyone agreed, we'd all be driving Fords and listening to Bose. That would suck. Hope we agree. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 ---------------- On 10/15/2004 2:49:45 PM D-MAN wrote: ...if everyone agreed, we'd all be driving Fords... ---------------- I drive a Ford! What's wrong with Ford! Now you're asking for it, buddy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 My apologies to all you Ford-driving Bose-listeners! ..or is it "condolences"? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 OK DMAN thems there fighten wordz. I DO NOT listen to Bose! But I sho drive a ford! You guys will get a kick out of this!!!!! Debate this for a while as I for one have found it interesting! I had my wifes car rewired with Kimber Kable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Driving or even owning a Ford is a well known problem that effects our nation at a grass-roots level, one that most likely can be treated, remedied or even cured with self-medication and disipline. Historically, Ford ownership and Ford driving has been linked to genetics. Entire generations of Americans have fallen prey to this insidious addiction. Just when modern medicine and drivers education programs are making headway in lessening the costs of Ford ownership and the burden imposed on society by those actually driving them on public roadways, a new and even more dangerous combination is now spreading throughout the country. That is the tendency to prefer, own, and listen to BOSE products WHILE owning and/or driving Fords. There is a need for locally-funded neighborhood 13 or 14-step programs in for those unfortunate persons amongst us with the affore-mentioned affliction that they could WALK to in order to prevent the DRIVING portion of the addiction and to do so SILENTLY to avoid the dreaded BOSE-listening so often associated with this silent epidemic... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 My Ford could run over your car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Meuge -- we are evidently on the same page you and I, the only thing I don't understand is why you would say adding the extra run of cabling lowers resistance. An extra run of cable, regardless of gauge used -- is certainly going to have more resistance than a 2" jumper at the binding posts, at least, I think it would! Dman -- Interconnects are NOT "inductors, however -- they do have some small, measureable self-inductance. These two things are really different. Sure, all passive parts, regardless of what they are -- possess resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Resistors have measureable amounts of inductance and capacitance. Capacitors have measureable amounts of resistance and inductance. Inductors have measureable amounts of capacitance and resistance. However, a resistor is a resistor, and it is used because of the high resistive element it provides, and likewise for the other parts. For example: No one uses a capacitor for it's inductive element. So, wire as well possess all three attributes, but the measured amounts of resistance, inductance, and capacitance are so low -- that the only person in the house who might appreciate the real sonic shifts in wire would be the family cat or dog. We are talking .0025db variation due to the differences in the values between wire for audio. The voltage going through an interconnect is pretty small. Now, if you take a power cable, and coil it up -- that's a great way to create an nice electromagnetic field around your rack! A coil indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssh Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 My only bark to this is, that I have heard differences, and in some cases, improvements with different interconnects. Maybe some systems are more immune to differences than others. SSH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Ironically, the best interconnects make the biggest differences on the cheapest systems. Cheapest being a relative term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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