Coltrane Turning Point /The Bethlehem Years

[pauln]

This is my cleanest and most favorite record. Is it John's best?

1.Pristine

2.If i'm lucky ( I'll be the one )

3. Tippin'

4. Midriff

5. Turtle walk

6. Love and the weather

7. The outer world

Track 1,3,4,6 : Donald Byrd, Idrees Sulieman,

Bill Hardman, Ray Copeland (tp), Melba Liston,

Frank Rehak, Jimmy Cleveland (tb), Sahib Shibab,

Bill Graham (as), John Coltrane, Al Cohn (ts),

Bill Slapin (bs), Walter Bishop (p),

Wendell Marshall (,Art Blakey (dr)

Track 2,5,7 : Donald Byrd (tp), Frank Rehak (tb),

Gene Quill (as), John Coltrane (ts), Al Cohn (ts),

Eddie Costa (p), Freddie Green (g), Oscar Pettiford (

Philly Joe Jones (dr)

Recorded September - December, 1957

[Allan Songer]

Coltrane isn't even the LEADER on these obscure cuts--most of them seem to be taken from either the "Art Blakey Big Band" date from 1957 and from anther all-star jam first released as "Winner's Circle." The title "John Coltrane, The Bethlehem Years" is really stretching things! Coltrane does solo on most of the cuts, but this IS NOT HIS MUSIC and to list him as the leader is both confusing and disingenuous.

I have both of these records and while there's some good jammin' going on, they aren't John Coltrane records.

[jdm56]

Hey Allen, could you recommend a good starting place for a jazz newbie wanting to explore some Coltrane? Something with good sonics, on CD, SACD or DVD-Audio.

Thanks,

Doug

[boomac]

Just in case you want to go out and buy it tonight:

"Blue Trane" (I recon Allan would start you there)

[ben.]

I realize you didn't ask me, but later Coltrane can be a bit obtuse. Try the Capitol/Blue Note stuff first. Blue Trane, the Miles records, that kind of thing. JC's playing on Kind of Blue is crystalline genius.

[garymd]

As far as SACD, "Blue Train" is the one to get. The only others I have on SACD are "Kenny Burrell And John Coltrane" and "A Love Supreme." Stay away from the latter if you're just beginning.

Other recommendations on CD would be "Giant Steps", "My Favorite Things" and "Bags And Trane." Like Ben said, some of his later stuff is an acquired taste.

[ben.]

I picked this up on a whim a while back. It's in the queue at the VPI 16.5. Should be interesting to hear an alt. take of Giant Steps, if nothing else...

Details:

1.Giant steps

2.Naima

3.Like Sonny

4.Cousin Mary

5. I'll wait and pray

6. Count down

7. Body and soul

8. Syeedas song flute

Tracks 1-3 : John Coltrane (ts), Cedar Walton (p),

Paul Chambers (, Lex Humphries (dr)

Tracks 6,8 : John Coltrane (ts), Tommy Flanagan (p),

Paul Chambers (, Art Taylor (dr)

Track 7 : John Coltrane (ts), McCoy Tyner (p),

Steve Davis (, Elvin Jones (dr)

Recorded April 01, 1959 - May 04-05, 1959,

October 24, 1959 - November 24, 1960

Gary, Taj Mahal is taking his turn at burning in the Benz. Life is good! Lil Miles didn't get quite the attention he's used to on Wednesdays, but he sure dug the Marley this afternoon!

[ben.]

Who's heard The Avante-Garde with Trane, Don Cherry, Charlie Haden and Ed Blackwell? Look interesting. They do a handful of Ornette tunes...

[Allan Songer]

Why not start with Coltrane's only gen-u-ine top 40 hit?

Plus, it's the first record with Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner.

Plus it's the first time Trane put the soprano to good use.

The version of "Summertime" pretty much sums up everything Coltrane had done for the previous 3 years and more or less closes the books on the "sheets of sound" period.

Great place to start, as you can work both FORWARD and BACKWARD from this one.

I have no idea if "My Favorite Things" is available on SACD or DVD-Audio.

[boomac]

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On 12/15/2004 11:17:48 PM boomac wrote:

Just in case you want to go out and buy it tonight:

"Blue Trane" (I recon Allan would start you there)

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Maybe not!

I forgot about Kind of Blue. If you bought that and Blue Train you'd be in Blue Heaven!

[Allan Songer]

"Blue Train" is really an anomaly. All of Coltrane's efforts as a leader in the 1957-58 period were free-for-all blowing dates for Prestige. Even though his playing is SPECTACULAR and the music involving his appearances as a sideman on other dates like Red Garland's "All Morning Long" and "Soul Junction" were really loose jam sessions as well.

"Blue Train" on the other hand is AS TIGHT AS A DRUM. That's because it's a Blue Note date--Lion and Wolff paid for rehersal time and made sure that there were charts for all the players in advance, etc. "Blue Train" is Blue Note hard-bop with Coltrane GOING OFF in his solos, but it always comes back to that tight ensemble blowing. Very structured and disciplined stuff, really.

The Miles Davis dates for Prestige were also loose affairs, but since this was a REGULAR WORKING QUINTET the performances are tight--all the band was doing in those landmark sessions was playing everyting they knew--all the stuff they'd been playing in clubs for the last 18 months.

[jdm56]

Thanks a lot, guys.

Is "My Favorite Things" available on CD? I shop the mail order clubs mostly, (BMG & Columbia House) and I don't recall seeing it. I think I'll look for it and Blue Trane.

I'm really enjoying my first tentative steps (not Giant!) into jazz. I like a lot of the newer smooth jazz; stuff that you guys probably don't consider "real" jazz. (I'm not sure I do, either.) But what really grabs me is the more classic sound, the piano/bass/drums foundation. I got "Take 5" and love it. Also, the "Essential Thelonious Monk" -- love that too! One newer CD that I really like is the Brad Mehldau Trio's "Anything Goes". And of course, I'm absolutely nuts for Holly Cole!

Anyway, thanks again for the help. I may be back with more questions!

[Allan Songer]

http://www.towerrecords.com/product.aspx?pfid=1542241

[pauln]

I was just asking because I have only heard this one record with Coltrane playing on it. I am a musician and do not care if he himself composed these songs or not. I really like what I hear him playing and my intent in asking about it was to know if others think this is his best playing, (performance, not writing?.

Am I reading here that his own compositions are way different?

[Allan Songer]

You are in for a REAL treat, my friend. These recordings represent some of the LEAST impressive performances of Coltrane's career. I envy you the journey you are setting out on. HAVE FUN!

[pauln]

I almost hate to write this since folks have been so encouraging. I had the radio in the car on the local jazz station and heard a sax playing what I think of as "phoney jazz". Turns out it was Coltrane playing Inchworm. Please tell me this is not the direction he went with his musical ideas. I would never intentionally listen to what he did with Inchworm for the rest of my life. As a musician I recognise what he is doing here - it's called doodling - it's what tired burned out players resort to when their improvisational ideas don't come anymore. All musicians recognise this phoney style and despise it. I like the spirit and breathe and hard mode scales he played on the Turning Point album - not the mono tone long notes and chromatic doodling I heard on Inchworm. Is Inchworm an aberation?

[Allan Songer]

Ok, so now you've heard a few VERY pedestrian tenor solos on some cuts where Coltrane was a SIDE MAN very VERY early in his career and you've decided that this is the BEST music he was ever involved in because of something you heard on the radio.

I am assuming that the version of "The Inch Worm" you heard was from the 1962 LP "Coltrane" on Impulse Records (catalog A-21). This is not one of the truly GREAT LPs from the "classic" quartet of Coltrane, McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison and Elvin Jones, but to say that the group's perfomance is nothing more than "noodling" shows an ALARMING lack of sophistication on your part--especially since you're a serious musician (I have to wonder how "serious" you are if the only Coltrane you know are those obscure "side man" cuts on Bethlehem).

Maybe you will never "get" Coltrane and that's OK, but do yourself a favor and do some serious listening before you decide that "the Bethlehem Years" is the best he has to offer.

You might reject Coltrane's explorations on the soprano using "simple" tunes like "Greensleeves," "My Favorite Things" and "The Inch Worm" in this period (1960-62) as nothing more than whimsy, but I find them hypnotic and mesmerising. I agree that "Coltrane!" might not be THE most compelling LP Coltrane made in this period, but the LP has one cut that stands out as one of his finest performances--you have to listen to "Out of this World" from this session and get back to us.

Sorry if I'm coming off like a jerk here, but Coltrane's music has had the most profound infulence on me over the last 30 years and it's really hard for me not to get emotional about it.

KEEP LISTENING!

[Parrot]

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On 12/22/2004 3:59:20 PM pauln wrote:

I almost hate to write this since folks have been so encouraging. I had the radio in the car on the local jazz station and heard a sax playing what I think of as "phoney jazz". Turns out it was Coltrane playing Inchworm. Please tell me this is not the direction he went with his musical ideas. I would never intentionally listen to what he did with Inchworm for the rest of my life. As a musician I recognise what he is doing here - it's called doodling - it's what tired burned out players resort to when their improvisational ideas don't come anymore. All musicians recognise this phoney style and despise it. I like the spirit and breathe and hard mode scales he played on the Turning Point album - not the mono tone long notes and chromatic doodling I heard on Inchworm. Is Inchworm an aberation?

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Are you a jazz musician yourself? Interesting observations. I commend you for your courage in expressing an honest viewpoint likely to be unpopular.

[ben.]

It does take a certain degree of courage to so proudly profess one's own ignorance, and with such pride. Yes, Coltrane was a hack, and yes, this guy should continue to feel superior to one of the finest creative forces of the 20th century. Puhlease.

[Parrot]

LOL! I knew a kid in college who after hearing a few minutes of Mahler's Symphony 4 declared it wasn't much good and that he could easily have written a better one himself.

But Pauln has a right to his opinion and it is refreshing to read someone post now and then who doesn't feel compelled to repeat the party line like a mantra.