Coltrane Turning Point /The Bethlehem Years

[Steve_L]

Thanks Gary! Will do!!

[mike stehr]

Gary wrote to Paul:

"Talk about something with which you have more expertise, like PP vs SET."

Sh*t, he knows less on that topic than Jazz.

[Parrot]

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On 12/23/2004 3:51:39 PM Steve_L wrote:

But I would encourage anyone who likes jazz to share some of their favorites with all of us. I know it really helps me expand my enjoyment of the music.

Thanks for all the great information!!

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You're quite welcome.

I don't know if you're set up for multichannel SACD, or just strictly stereo, but if you have multichannel, you should run, not walk, to buy Miles Davis's "In A Silent Way." The stereo layer is the same old tired mix that jazz fans have had on their records for decades, but the multichannel layer is a revelation. Not only does it feature a brilliant and aggressive use of the surround channels, but, even more importantly, it is made from the original multitracks and is vastly better quality than anything ever heard on an LP version of this title. The stereo mix may only be a couple of generations worse, but by the sound of it, it could well be six or seven generations down! You will never want to listen to the horrendously bad dub-sourced stereo mix again after you hear the multichannel. It is hard to believe how poor of a stereo mix-down master they used--it is almost incomprehensibly bad.

This was Davis's start into fusion, and he was helped along incalculably by the brilliant guitarist John McLaughlin, later of Mahavishnu Orchestra fame. The recording also features Wayne Shorter, Chick Corea, and Herbie Hancock, to name a few of the more famous guys. McLaughlin explains that Davis gave the musicians a lot of free rein, which is perhaps an overly polite way of saying this was an ensemble project with Davis's name on it.

[Allan Songer]

Notice how Paul goes on and on about the mix and says very little about the music? Other than the "incalculable" conribuitions of John McLaughlin (whose playing here is as spare and delicate as can be imagined--not what you'd expect if you are familiar with the Mahavishnu stuff) and the fact that this is an "ensemble" project, there's NOTHING here about the MUSIC!

By the way, Paul--other than HEAVILY charted big-band and SOLO recordings, ALL JAZZ PERFROMANCES ARE 'ENSEMBLE' PROJECTS.

Let's hear your take on the MUSIC!

[Parrot]

Allan,

Those of us who have so very much enjoyed some of your posts know that you haven't said anything that wasn't readily available on back jacket liner notes. Namedropping and posting pictures of cover art are all well and good, but can hardly be considered serious music discussion.

I realize that you must be devastated to learn about "In A Silent Way" from The Parrot, especially when it's available only on a format you haven't even heard, SACD. As Jazman liked to say, Open your mind. If you heard "In A Silent Way" the right way, you would put your records of it (if you are familiar with the title) up for sale on eBay at once.

McLaughlin sounds exactly like McLaughlin on "In A Silent Way." Anyone familiar with his distinct sound would ID him as the guitarist in five notes.

"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture." - Frank Zappa

[Allan Songer]

?

[Allan Songer]

Read the first sentance of this post that began my "SPEAK NO EVIL" thread:

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=57722&sessionID={43B49954-B2CA-4291-ABE0-68FC4905D015}

I was listening to "In a Silent Way" when you were still in knee-pants.

LET'S HEAR YOUR TAKE ON THE MUSIC!

[Parrot]

It's no skin off my nose if you refuse to listen to a *vastly* better recording of "In A Silent Way" out of wounded pride.

[Allan Songer]

I'd be happy to listen to a surround-sound version this album. It doesn't change the performance, but I'm sure it would be enlightening.

LET'S HEAR YOUR TAKE ON THE MUSIC!

Not going to get it I know.

At least give me your take on Tony Williams' drumming on this one . . .

[Parrot]

LOL! You're sounding a lot like this:

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Anyway, you're more than welcome to stop by for a visit to hear "In A Silent Way" the way it should be heard. I'll play you some McLaughlin records so that you won't make the same error again.

[Allan Songer]

You think those guys rolling tape back in 1969 were thinking about a 5 or 7-channel mix? I'm glad you like your aftificially enhanced digitized version of this album. Maybe it does sound good--I doubt it, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The main thing is that YOU enjoy it!

I never thought much of Mahavishnu--especially that dreadful, PONDEROUS live album--YUCK! And it's hard to take seriously anyone with a double-neck guitar. He sure could play the sh!t out of it, though.

Are you into Brian Eno's ambient albums? I'll bet they sound GREAT in 7-channel!

[Parrot]

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On 12/23/2004 7:54:53 PM Allan Songer wrote:

I'm glad you like your aftificially enhanced digitized version of this album.

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There you go again. There is nothing "artificially" enhanced about this 5-channel (not 7-channel) version. This new mix was made directly from the multi-tracks, which is as close to purity as there can be. The stereo version is fascinating as the worst example I've ever heard of a stereo mix-down tape.

I'm bending over backwards in order to help you, but all I'm hearing from you is excuses and ill manners. Well, as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[Steve_L]

I'd like to buy it, I don't have it in my collection even in basic two channel. What label is it on?

I have an HT using F-3s, KSW-12, C-2 and S-2s. Pioneer VSX-1014TX-K receiver. Does a real nice job with multi-channel, but I just set it up, so I'm just building a multi-channel collection.

[Parrot]

I think you'll love it, Steve L. I hope so, anyway. It's on Sony.

http://elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SONSAM86556

Read the blurb there and you'll be a jazz expert too

[edwinr]

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On 12/15/2004 6:29:31 PM pauln wrote:

This is my cleanest and most favorite record. Is it John's best?

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Hi, Pauln. Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry you were hit between the eyes on your first post with us. Please ignore that, and enjoy the forum. I'm glad to see you are developing a taste in jazz. That fact that you have a favourite record and it's jazz, is great. Is it John's best? Well, maybe. If YOU think so. I personally feel that Coltrane never made a bad recording, whether he was a 'sideman' or the headline. There are a number of other album's Coltrane has put out that may offer you another perspective on his contibution to jazz. Please be guided by some of the recommendations in this thread.

I like all sorts of music. Some jazz I just can't listen to. Other jazz, I can listen to all night. I buy records to please myself. Not to please others. Like they say; "another man's poison....". Good luck with your endeavors and have a Merry Christmas.

[Allan Songer]

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On 12/23/2004 8:56:14 PM paulparrot wrote:

There you go again. There is nothing "artificially" enhanced about this 5-channel (not 7-channel) version. This new mix was made directly from the multi-tracks, which is as close to purity as there can be. The stereo version is fascinating as the worst example I've ever heard of a stereo mix-down tape.

I'm bending over backwards in order to help you, but all I'm hearing from you is excuses and ill manners. Well, as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

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"In A Silent Way" is a sonic disaster when compared with earlier direct to two (or ONE!) track recordings done earlier in the decade by true masters like Roy DuNann or Rudy van Gelder and I don't see how mixing it down to more than ONE channel will help all that much -the overdubs are as clumsy as any I've heard on a piece of serious music. But if you say the new mix is better I have no reason to doubt you.

Crappy recording--good record.

[Parrot]

Sheesh! You still don't get it. In an effort to help you once more:

THE RECORDING QUALITY OF "IN A SILENT WAY" WAS EXCELLENT ON THE ORIGINAL MULTI-TRACKS. THE SONIC DISASTER CAME ABOUT WHEN IT WAS MIXED DOWN TO STEREO, AND APPARENTLY WENT THROUGH A SERIES OF PLAIN LOUSY DUBS BEFORE THEY CAME UP WITH THE STEREO MASTER. THE SACD MULTI-CHANNEL MIX WAS MADE FROM THE MULTI-TRACKS, DIRECTLY FROM THEM TO THE DSD MASTER. IN THE HISTORY OF RECORDED MUSIC THERE HAS SELDOM BEEN MORE IMPROVEMENT MADE TO A RECORD THAN IN THIS CASE.

[edwinr]

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On 12/22/2004 6:05:01 PM Allan Songer wrote:

Ok, so now you've heard a few VERY pedestrian tenor solos on some cuts where Coltrane was a SIDE MAN very VERY early in his career and you've decided that this is the BEST music he was ever involved in because of something you heard on the radio.

Maybe you will never "get" Coltrane and that's OK, but do yourself a favor and do some serious listening before you decide that "the Bethlehem Years" is the best he has to offer.

Sorry if I'm coming off like a jerk here, but Coltrane's music has had the most profound infulence on me over the last 30 years and it's really hard for me not to get emotional about it.

KEEP LISTENING!

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Hi, Allan. I respect your view and opinions. I enjoy reading your comments about music. I take issue though with, as you've kindly admitted, your emotional response to questions about your love of music. Pauln is a newbie who, like all of us, is exploring his new found enthusiasm for jazz and maybe other forms of music. I respect that and I like to feel that I could be part of his learning process. Unfortunately I haven't the knowledge as you and Paul obviously have.

I would like to say that the debate between you and Paul is always interesting and stimulating reading.

Maybe you lack patience with people who don't have the knowledge you have. All I ask is that you could be more considerate and thoughtful in your response to questions you may deem beneath you to answer in a polite fashion. Especially to newbies. Feel free however to say what you like to the rest of us - within reason.

Kind regards

Edwin.

[ben.]

Jeeesus. This exchange between Paul, Gary, Allan, and myself has nothing to do with pauln's question, really. It has everything to do with paulparrot (wonder why he never drops his real name here?) being very good at being a baiting antagonist that changes the subject whenever his narrow views are challenged. There is not one member of this forum that has consistently caused so many people to leave or post minimally. This is at least in part to his 3rd grade manner of "debate". Those of you who are newer around here may not see the big picture. There are several members of long standing who have commented that they can't understand why such a "nice guy" in person can be such an "a$$hole" on the forum. Those members also do not generally get involved in threads such as this.

I'm no saint, but this LPB (remember your official Klipsch Forum acronyms, kids!) takes unusual pleasure in causing trouble with certain members, many of which go far out of their way to help others here. The same can certainly not be said for the self-styled innocent Mr. Loeber. His idea of helping people is inciting a bitter argument whenever such mortal issues as amplifier topology or the lifestyles of long-dead musicians come up. Thank god we have the Push-Pull Digital Messiah to save us from the hellfire that is low power and analog playback.

Is the only reason this LPB is tolerated around here is that he doesn't curse (Mommy probably won't let him), and doesn't start threads about SVS subwoofers? Gimme a break!!

[Seadog]

Between all of the mud slinging on this thread there are some informative contributions and interesting recommendations. As my audio equipment gradually improves I find myself looking for well performed, recorded, and produced music, so I have come to appreciate Jazz much more. As an almost complete newbie to Jazz, I find the posts from Allan and others very informative, and I hate to see these threads disintegrate like this one has done. BTW, I recently picked up my first Blue Note LP, Art Blakey & the Jazz Messengers, AT THE JAZZ CORNER OF THE WORLD. It must have been incredible to hear live performances like this in the late 50s and early 60s. A CD I recently bought that I really like is THE MORE I SEE YOU with Oscar Peterson, Benny Carter, Clark Terry, Ray Brown, Lorne Lofsky, and Lewis Nash.