Sound of Chorus II's??

[ghaleon]

Hi there,

I recently bought a pair of Chorus II's, and I've got a few problems so far. Please post any information to help me out!

First off, the sound quality of the speakers really stuck me. They have an incredible "live" sound to them, and guitars/vocals sound absolutely fantastic. Problem is, the midrange seems really overpowering, so that the bass and high freq. take a backseat...is this due to the horn? I've messed around with speaker placement, any tips? Right now they are 2 feet off the ground, and 1.5 feet from the back wall.

The room they are in is all plywood, with a conrete floor. I'm sure the nightmarish reverb is affecting the sound, but in some CD's the bass COMPLETELY dissappears, where other recordings have fantastic, full bass. Any idea about this? It seems older CD's like led zepplin 1-4 and jimi hendrix stuff are missing the kickdrum sound, and the bass guitar is barely audible. However, the newest Santana CD sounds incredible.

I bought a new NAD intregrated amp b/c the dealer told me it would compliment the chorus' well. I certainly don't feel that way! With flat eq, they sound really midrange heavy. Crank the treble, and they get harsh. Crank the bass, and they get tubby. I bypass the pre, and hook up my adcom pre. Flat, it's nothing special. Crank the bass however, and the kickdrum magically appears, loud and strong. I guess this is due to the 2 pre's manipulating different bass frequenices? Anyways, can someone reccomend a proper amp to drive these speakers with? It sounds to me like I need something with a few more tone control options....maybe an older luxman or something? C-300, M-300 combo perhaps?

I was thinking of an external EQ, but I figured I would explore more amp/pre options first.

I know these are great speakers, but I feel that I really don't have the setup right now to make them shine. I'd like to see a bit of a flatter response from them, but the more I read, I realize that loud and proud horn is characteristic of the older Klispch sound? True? I know there is a big difference between being accurate, and sounding good...

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

[DrWho]

Well to be honest, it sounds like your room is your biggest problem. However, there are some things to check.

Listen to one of your CDs that has completely no bass and walk around the room. Do you hear the bass that you're missing in the corners? The reason I ask is that it's possible that your listening position is in a spot where certain bass frequencies are cancelling themselves out. If the kick on one recording was dominiate in one of these frequencies, then you wouldn't hear it. But this would explain why you hear the kick on other recordings (because the kick is predominate in another range).

The other cause for lack of bass may actually be the recording itself. If you don't hear buildup in the corners, then try listening on a pair of headphones. If you don't hear any bass on the headphones, then you shouldn't be hearing any bass from your speakers.

How comfortable are you with taking your speakers apart? I know there's a mod for attenuating the mid driver by moving taps or something around on the crossover. I have no clue how this works, but perhaps someone might chime in. You might try stuffing a pillow in your mid horn and see if that helps any.

Why are your speakers 2 feet off the ground? There is an effect called boundary cancellation where any "boundary" (like a floor or wall) causes a big dip in the frequency that is 1/4 wavelength away. In your case, 2 feet is a quarter wavelength of 140Hz so in this frequency range sound is getting cancelled by reflections coming off the floor. 1.5 feet from the back wall only makes this worse. Generally this isn't a very large factor in home environments, but it seems like it's just one more thing adding to the big picture. I would try getting your speakers on the floor and if that doesn't help, then pushing your speakers back into the corners of your room. The farther out from the corner, the less bass you will get (though in some cases, going into the corner can cause boominess...it all depends on the room).

What are the dimensions of your room? Are acoustical treatments an option?

[Woodog]

You might also check to be sure your speakers are in phase with each other.

Make sure the positive side of the amp goes to the positive side of the speakers on both sides.

It hasn't been mentioned, and it might be a contributing factor.

A room with 'nightmarish' reverberation will have a difficult time getting a good sound.

Best of luck,

Forrest

[ghaleon]

Thx for the replies so far,

I'm bascially familiar with acoustics, I'm more concerned about the natural sound of the speakers. Due to how reflective the room is, bass does come and go as you move about the room... even on the well recorded discs. That was the main reason for trying to speakers in different positions, and moving the listening position around. It didn't matter much. I think what I'm getting at is the speakers producing a lack bass on the majority of CD's I have listened to so far.

Attenuating the midrange horn sounds interesting, but I definately wouldn't attempt myself. Wouldn't it just be easier to get a preamp or eq that would attenuate the mids for you?

I know about cancellation effects, and I do acknowledge the room is a problem. However, I have never heard it to this extreme, and it dosen't explain why some CD's are sounding good while most aren't. It almost sounds like a radio, no bass, mostly voice frequencies, and some highs.

The speakers have been tried against corners, and against walls with little difference. Here's a little sidebar - with the passive radiator on the back, would having the speakers too close to a back wall "suffocate" the passive rad? Interfere with it's operation due to the air it's pushing out having nowhere to go? By extension, would interfering with the passive rad also interfere with the operation of the woofer?

The phase of the connections was the first thing I checked when I heard them. They are hooked up correctly, maybe I should try reversing the polarity just to hear the effect?

One last check as well, I'm going to take the NAD out of the picture, and hook up an anthem power amp to the adcom preamp.

Thanks again, and keep the replies coming! I'd really like to get to the bottom of this.

[sunnysal]

by all means reverse the polarity of one speakers just to hear the effect. if that does not bring back the fullness then you need to check the woofers for damage, I have not heard the chorus described as bass shy before. best of luck, tony

[garymd]

Horns love tubes. Any way you can audition a good tube amp in your system? You may be suprised at the results. I ran my cornwalls with SS gear for over 20 years with no problems such as you are describing but was amazed when I heard them for the first time with tubes.

Sounds like you have more problems then just that but it may be worth a try if that option is available to you.

Keep trying placement. You really shouldn't need major EQing to get them to sound good. Something is definitely wrong. And yes, too close to the wall is not good with the passive radiator and having them on the floor is usually the best placement. Good luck and keep us posted.

[ghaleon]

thx again for the interest, and the responses!

You say "not good" to have the speakers backed up against a wall, but would it be enough to damage the woofer(driver)? I wonder, b/c the passive radiator gets pushed and pulled by the movement of the woofer, correct? Then, any interference with the radiator would mean interference with the driver/woofer?

I was really surprised at the lack of bass, especially after the rave reviews I read from these speakers... I definately wouldn't have thought a speaker with a 15inch woofer would be bass shy!

[ghaleon]

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On 12/18/2004 5:46:34 PM sunnysal wrote:

by all means reverse the polarity of one speakers just to hear the effect. if that does not bring back the fullness then you need to check the woofers for damage, I have not heard the chorus described as bass shy before. best of luck, tony

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What's the best way to do this? I only know of inspecting the cone/seal for physical damage, and pushing on the driver to hear any grit.

[sunnysal]

those are two valid methods, the third low-tech method is to put your ear up to each woofer to make sure they are both working. I know this sounds simplistic BUT once you confirm that the two speakers are not wired out of phase (did you try this yet? flip one and see what happens), place the speakers on the floor, pull them a little forward so they are not too close to the back wall and assure both woofers are working and show no binding of the voice coils you should have speakers with real bass punch.

if after these steps you still have bad bass then we need to make sure a woofer was not swapped out, you need to see if the woofers match exactly, you need to look for leaks in the cabinets, tears in the surrounds of the passive radiators, you might check the model markings on the woofers by removing the back of the speakers and lastly you might check the crossovers for dried up capacitors...tony

[Audio Flynn]

Having them 2 feet off the ground is a different approach.

THis may be a difficulty.

But out of phase or a bad driver sounds like a possiblility.

For a non folded horn design like a Chorus or Cornwall or Forte; they are not usually commented on to be bass shy.

I think they have lower bass by a few hz than a LaScala. Most times, the LaScala squacker has much better mid perfromance.

[Duke Spinner]

no bass ... on Chorus 2 ??? ... no way !

get the speakers on the floor

check phasing by swapping the pos/ neg incoming wires ..On One Speaker Only

the horn does not handle all the mids, lots are coming from the 15" direct radiator

what speakers did you "upgrade" from ??

my Forte's shake the room .........

i think yer outta phase, personally, you might try the battery test

there is a small chance of an x-over problem ..not likely on both speaks' ...

[leok]

I have my Chorus-11s on the floor and in corners. Raising them off the floor causes bass loss due to floor reflection. Corners (about 6" out from sides and back) make the passive radiator more effective.

Also, your ss amp may have substantial distortion at the low powers at which the Chorus-IIs operate. This makes them sound thin. Tube amps tent to operate well at low powers which is why they work well with horn-loaded speakers. There are some ss amps that work well, but I don't know ss very well. There are some Class-A ss amps that might be very good. There are also a few new "digital" amps that tend to handle low powers well.

Leo

[Dale A B]

i had speakers set up in a 11 x 18 basement room on a concrete floor and plywood walls, and the sound was absolutely horrendous. I could not believe the sound of the same system once carpeting and a "deadened" room took over.

Can you try the speakers in a different room?

I think the speakers are fine and your room is reverberant and too brite. Good luck!

NP - Type O Negative "World Coming down"

[Duke Spinner]

saaay, Leok ... you look just like me ! ....

[ghaleon]

After some quick and dirty soundproofing, the bass suddenly made more of an appearance.... hopefully with more, they will be sounding like they sound. After inspecting, no damage, they look like original cones, and there IS bass coming out of the woofer, just not making it to the listening position (or 2 feet from the speaker for that matter)

[JewishAMerPrince]

I had noticed this thread a week or so ago. Recently I picked up a pair of ChorusIIs off Ebay and had my first opportunity to listen to them tonight. My CIIs alos seem shy of bass, especially when A/B'd against my RF7s which are sitting right next to them. I have heard such rave reviews about the CIIs yet in the flesh (rather in the wood) they are somewhat of a letdown. Great detail in the midrange however, just missing lower midrange and upper bass.

I'm hopeing a different amp and a different room improves the situation.

Jerry Rappaport

[fgarib]

Ghaleon,

I really don't think that the NAD is the problem. I have been using low end NAD separates for my KHorns, and though it is a little shy in the bass, it is not nearly what you are describing.

I may have missed it in the thread, but why 2 feet off the ground? This can definitely cause a lot of problems.

Also, what was the result when you switched the phases?

You need to get to the bottom of this!!

-F

[fgarib]

Eeeps Double Post.... sorry.

[GeorgeV]

I own a pair of Forte II's and I noticed that the speaker cable you use can also effect the sound of the speakers. When I connect my Forte's using UltraLink Ambience cables the mid-range sound can be overwhelming at times. However, when I use ordinary 12 gauge copper cable the speaker seems to have a better mix between the bass and mid-range.