Please educate me.....

[BillH2121]

As I have mentioned in some other posts, I am new to HT and have been out of the audio market for 30 years. I recently purchased a Denon AVR 1705, RF15, RC25, RS25s and RW10. While I am impressed with this system as far as movie watching goes, the sound is a little "thin" when I listen to CDs as compared to my "old" setup of Mac 2105, C26, and Mac XR5 speakers. I know nothing about the heritage speakers, BUT when I look at pictures of Cornwalls, Khorns, etc, it doesn't seem possible that essentially a woofer and a horn could match the richness/completeness/full spectrum (you chose the subjective term) that my Mac speakers produce. Please educate me about Klipsch and what level of Klipsch speaker I would need to match my old two channel system. Thanks for your time and help.

[Deang]

Well, here is the XR7. The XR5 was a bit smaller, using a 12" passive, 8", 1.5", and two 2 5/8" tweeters.

I would imagine this sounding substantially different than what you have now. Probably a lot of bass out of this design, with somewhat of a diffuse soundfield -- certainly more enveloping than what you are hearing now. Also, the large baffle provides a bigger launching point for the sound -- and so a bigger soundstage. This type of speaker, like Bose or Definitive Technology, makes use of the adjacent room boundaries to move the sound around. The downside is uneven and unpredictable in-room frequency response.

Horns exemplify a completely different approach, using controlled directivity to minimize in-room boundary effects -- which provides more even and somewhat predictable in-room frequency response. Horns also have lower distortion levels since there is less diaphragm movement for any given SPL as compared to a direct radiator design (like the XR5). Higher sensitivity also means one can concentrate on quality lower powered amps, as opposed to high powered amps which don't always perform at their optimum at the low power part of their spectrum.

Bigger Heritage, with the exception of the Cornwall, actually horn loads all aspects of the speaker (bass, midrange, and tweeter). They are full range, very low distortion designs -- and will make something like the XR5 sound like a toy. These speakers excel at recreating the live event, and sound less like a recording than anything I've ever heard before.

With that said, keep in mind that you are currently using the smallest of the Reference designs. Small drivers/baffle do some things very well -- but completely filling a room with sound isn't one of them. To get this quality in the Reference Series -- you have to move to the RF-7 with some good subbage.

I think you should stay the course, and enjoy the upgrade path.

[Piranha]

Nice post DeanG

[Chris Robinson]

Bill, your old Mac equipment sure looks great. I loved my MC2105 to death. Actually sorry I sold it, but I had to move on to 3.5 quality watts. No flames please.

Klipsch speakers, if they do nothing else, make you look at your amplification and sources. Mac's are really good. Klipsch speakers are great, but don't like amps that exhibit high distortion at low output levels (nearly all SS amps).

For grins, pick up a Harmon Kardon HK430 (630, 730, 930) on ebay for $75-$150 and hear how a really fine SS amp sounds for pennies on the dollar. I'm always amazed.

Denon is good for HT, but is a little "soft" on 2-channel. That's why I've separated my multi-channel and two-channel systems.

_______________________________

Music Hall MMF-7 Turntable w/ Goldring Eroica H MC

Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CDP with 24 bit/192 KHz Upsampling

Wright Sound WPP-100C Phono Stage

JF Lessard Pantheon 6SN7 SRPP Preamp w/ RCA 5R4GY & Sylvania 6SN7

JF Lessard Horus Parafeed Cobalt 2A3 Monoblocks w/ Tung Sol 5687 & AVVT 2A3

1976 KCBR Klipschorns with ALK Crossovers

Gear Online: Two Channel & Home Theater Systems

[BillH2121]

Thanks DeanG for the response. I don't plan to get rid of the Mac amp and preamp for two-channel listening. Are you saying that the Khorns alone are sufficient to out-perform my XR-5s - or do I need some kind of subwoofer? What combination of Klipsch speakers should I be shooting for? And yes, I know the reference set-up I have for the HT system is way less than optimal - I got that to appease the wife and kids for HT only. My interest is in the two-channel setup and a plan to upgrade when possible. I do realize from my current Klipsch system the incedible efficiency of the Klipsch design. Its just that the premise behind the design and old speaker line designations are alien to me.

[BillH2121]

Thanks also Chris for your response. Now I'm really confused - you mean if I'm going to upgrade to Klipsch, I need to give up my cherished Mac amp and preamp and buy a low-powered tube amp? I'm not totally opposed to that (I know a couple people who would gladly take my Mac equipment off my hands) but could someone give me an idea for a speaker/amp set-up and what should expect to pay for it?

[Deang]

Oh no, you don't have to do that at all! Lot's of people here love the sound of Mac on their Klipsch. Put your focus on the speakers, and then later, if you decide you would like to hear what tubes can do, you can give it a whirl. Keep in mind also that "low power" means different things to different people here. To Chris, low power is 3.5 to 15 watts. To me, it's 30 to 60. At any rate, concentrate on the speakers first. Also, if you don't have the room for big Heritage, then there's nothing wrong with settling in with a nice pair of RF-7's.

"Are you saying that the Khorns alone are sufficient to out-perform my XR-5s - or do I need some kind of subwoofer?"

Yes, that is what I'm saying. However, in the event you don't know this already -- the Klipschorn is an "unfinished" speaker. That is, there is no back to it. It was specifically designed for corner placement. Four feet of wall on both sides is needed to "complete" the bass horn. With good corner coupling, you can expect solid response down to 35Hz. Now, this isn't as low as subs go, but it's "real" bass -- solid, tight, dynamic, without compression. The bass is tuneful, and you can clearly follow the bass lines even at insane volume levels. Many however do augment their Klipschorns with a good sub to pick up that last octave -- primarily for movies. I wouldn't bother with sub for two channel listening -- unless you're into organ.

"What combination of Klipsch speakers should I be shooting for?"

I'm sure everyone here will agree that the Klipschorn is the pinnacle of performance. Most watch eBay closely in the hopes of picking up a nice used pair -- typically in the $1500 to $3000 range. Prices vary depending on vintage and condition. One also hopes the seller is close, however, many have driven half way across the country to pick them up. Shipping across the country is both risky, and can be expensive. Or, you can forego all of that stress and nonsense and just buy a new pair like I did. Hey, I'm down to 20 something payments.

"I do realize from my current Klipsch system the incedible efficiency of the Klipsch design. Its just that the premise behind the design and old speaker line designations are alien to me."

So, have you tried putting your MacIntosh gear on those diminutive RF-15's? Get ready for a shock.

Here you go. Happy reading.

http://invalid.ed.unit.no/~dunker/why.html

[edwinr]

----------------

On 12/21/2004 9:43:58 PM BillH2121 wrote:

...you mean if I'm going to upgrade to Klipsch, I need to give up my cherished Mac amp and preamp and buy a low-powered tube amp?

----------------

Please don't sell your Macs. I'd love one of those Mac integrateds for my Klipschorns - I don't think a McIntosh is capable of sounding bad with any speaker, are they?

[BillH2121]

OK - you all have convinced me to look at upgrade. I'm going by a local audioshop this afternoon to listen to the RF-7s. Neither of the rooms where I have audio equipment in my house will accomodate a corner speaker, so I guess the Khorns are out. The trip to the audioshop today is mostly to get my wife off center on this deal. I think a friend of my wife's may be interested in the old Mac XR-5s and I think I can get a reasonable price for them, considering I paid $1,000 for them 30 years ago. Thanks to all that contributed - as I stated, I'm way out of my depth re audio these days and I'll probably be back with many more questions for all the gurus on this Board. Happy Holidays to all!

[Parrot]

Bill,

Don't make any rash judgments on amps just on account of someone else's opinion. Yours may be perfectly fine. I'd settle on speakers first and then think about the amplification. The speaker change is going to be a lot more noticeable than an amp change.

[djk]

I was a McIntosh dealer when the XR5s were new.

They have more bass below 50hz, other than that they sound bad, really bad.

How bad?

The factory McIntosh rep brought in all the 1/3 oct test gear and a bunch of McIntosh parametric EQs. When we got done we had the flattest measuring speaker in the store.

And they still sounded bad.

PWK put frequency response about eighth on the list for what made speakers sound good, I would have to agree with him.

OTOH, I don't have to listen to them.

If you like them....

[BillH2121]

test

[BillH2121]

paulp - don't worry, I don't intend to get rid of the Mac amp and preamp. I listened to the RF-7s yesterday and I am sold!! The local dealer only had the floor demo in stock (cherry cabinet) and offered them to me for $1600. Ultimate Electronics gave me a quote of $1800. I'm not sure how soon it will happen, but I definately will add the RF7s to my 2-channel set-up. I hope to get a few bucks out of my Mac XR5s, but if most people feel like djk (see above) about them, I may end up using them as walnut plant stands!

[Erukian]

djk, PWK put freq response eighth on the list for what makes a speaker good, sounds like Bose might have a decent reason if their not the only ones who care about frequency response.

It's interesting how people "rate" speakers by their freq response when purchasing.

I'd love to hear where you got this information from though.

[colterphoto1]

Nice post Dean, but surprised you didn't touch on the complicated nature of our friend's 4-way Mac speakers. IMHO, each crossover point represents an opportunity for needless complexity, for things to go askew. The frequency, slope, driver characteristics and other factors make each crossover point a 'slippery slope' pun intended. Especially if any of the points is within the highly critical vocal range.

Your Macs also suffer from haveing the largest driver a single 8" diameter woofer. Most of the Klipsch heritage lineup are three way systems, not only horn loaded for the most part, but with 15" bass drivers. I'll let you do the pi*r2 thing, but it's a whole lot more piston pushing air. Simple is beautiful. Big boxes make big bass. Lots of good simple engineering going on inside a Heritage cabinet. Try it, you'll like it.

Michael

[djk]

"I'd love to hear where you got this information from though."

Eight Cardinal Points of Sound Reproduction

Frequency response was almost omitted from this consideration because it rates about last in importance.

Yet, more effort is spent to gain 'flat' frequency response than in optimizing other values. PWK from:

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/files/Eight%20Cardinal%20Points%20by%20PWK4.pdf

[djk]

"Your Macs also suffer from haveing the largest driver a single 8" diameter woofer."

McIntosh doesn't use a PR here, that is a very, very long throw 12" woofer.

XR5 Isoplanar Radiator Loudspeaker System

4-way floor system has 12" woofer, 8" lower mid, 1-1/2" dome upper mid and two 2-5/8" angled tweeters. Walnut finish with clear vinyl laminate. Replaceable top and base. Hinged grille. Black grille cloth.

Plug-in printed circuit crossover board. Crossover cover at the top front has block diagram plus main and tweeter fuses. Red and yellow indicator lights at the bottom right. Red light indicates tweeter fuse blown. Yellow light indicates maximum power level. Requires the MQ101 or MQ102 equalizer for flat low frequency response.

Crossover frequencies: 250Hz, 1.4kHz and 7kHz

Impedance 8 ohms

Output: 89dB @1w/1m

Power rating: 200w

Size: 29-15/16"H, 15"W and 12"D

Weight: 76 lb.

Sold from: 1976 to 1980

Last retail price: $599.00 each

[colterphoto1]

sorry, I was using the data supplied with the drawing for -7 configuration.

Well, then you have only a 12" woofer, whilst the Heritage line primarily uses 15". Do the math, it's still a MUCH bigger piston. Long excursion woofers generally heat up faster and waste energy by virtue of the much longer voice coil they must use. I would think that the longer excursions would also cause more doppler distortion at the upper reaches of the woofers response as well.

89 dB vs 96 db (Cornwall, the least efficient large Heritage) that's 7 dB MORE EFFICIENT, which equates to 4x the amplifier power. So hook up a Cornwall to 50 watts, you would need 200 watts with MC speaker for same volume IF it would take it long term, and even then your amp would probably distort before you reach the clean volume you would get from a Klipsch Heritage design.

Not that we listen loud all the time, but it gives you greater headroom and much less system distortion (of all types) if you have efficient speakers. Period. Talk about saving $$ on a system, spend you money where it counts- the motor that turns electrical energy into acoustical waves is what it's all about.

Michael