2ch w/sub (2.1?)

[Wester97]

I have 2 floorstanding speakers and a ksw12 sub. What setting should I put my Yamaha receiver on so that it outputs to the sub also? I've changed it to every dsp setting and it seems to only output to the floorstanding speakers and seems to also send the sub the same frequencies. When I turn my receiver to output lows only to the sub and not any to the floorstanding speakers, the sub does not receive a signal, and thus there is no output. I cant figure out what I did to mess it up. Any suggestions?

The speaker diagram that lights up on the receiver only shows the 2 front L/R floorstanding speakers.

Thank you in advance!

[MrMcGoo]

Welcome to the forum!

For bass management to work, the main speakers should be set to "small" and the subwoofer to yes. The digital source such as a CD player needs to be decoded by your receiver for the bass management to work. If you send an analog signal to the receiver, bass management is bypassed.

The receivers usually have "direct" and "stereo" as options. Direct bypasses bass management so it is stereo that you want. Set the crossover one full octave above the lowest frequency your amins can play. For example, if your mains plat down to 40 Hz, then set the crossover at 80 Hz.

The distance of the subwoofer frequently needs to be adjusted so that the subwoofer does not cancel the lower frequencies of the mains due to phase differences.

Bill

[Wester97]

I see what you are saying, but these speakers arent 'small' having 4 8" woofers receiving little amount of low freq. seems like a waste. I'll try it and let you know how it sounds.

But that still doesnt explain why my receiver doesnt show the sub in the speaker schematic. It only shows the 2 front speakers. When I do a test signal the sub logo pops up as the tone starts, but when im done with testing it goes away.

also,

The distance of the subwoofer frequently needs to be adjusted so that the subwoofer does not cancel the lower frequencies of the mains due to phase differences.

what do you mean by distance? distance from the listener or from the other speakers, and also do you mean to adjust it by physically moving it or with a setting on the receiver?

Thanks for your quick help!!

[3dzapper]

Rather than physically moving your sub, adjust the "phase" control on the sub until you get the best sound. It might take a little trial and error but when it's right, you'll know it.

If you give your Yammi's model number, maybe someone here has one and can help you better. It sounds different than my Yammi RX-V1.

Rick

[edwinr]

Don't be misled by the 'small' setting. Your large loudspeakers at this setting will still output low frequencies, it's just that the bass roll off starts at 80hz. In fact you'll be surprised how 'full' your loudspeakers sound if you run them in the DSP stereo mode and switch the subbie off as an experiment.

[Wester97]

it is the Yamaha HTR-5740

the phase on the sub is 0 or 180 right? how else can you adjust it?

can anyone explain why the sub wouldnt light up on the speaker schematic on the receiver? I set it up to have 2 front speakers and a sub, but only the 2 floorstanding speakers are shown.

Thanks again!

[MrMcGoo]

The 0 or 180 phase switches are not sufficiently accurate to avoid all phase issues. A phase switch should be variable from 0 to 180 degrees, not just two positions.

Varying the distance setting on the receiver allows you to fine tune the phase and group delay to avoid cancellations. My sub is set about two feet farther away than the actual distance to the listening position.

Bill

[Wester97]

well, im using the KSW-12. is that switch continuously variable from 0 to 180?

Can anyone figure out my receiver issue?

[colterphoto1]

On ALL of my Yamahas, normal stereo mode outputs ONLY to the Left and Right main speakers. You MUST use a HT or DSP mode to get sub outputs. This is a purity thing, so that users who wish to hear only L+R have an option to do so. On my RXV2400 unit, there is 2 channel and a 'direct stereo' mode, the later of which bypasses all digital circuitry.

Do you have a 7-channel stereo mode on yours? (looks like not, you have a 6ch mode) I have it and it sends normal stereo signal to ALL speakers hooked up, center and sub included. For you it might create your 2.1 mode that you are seeking. ALso make sure your xover point on sub is turned up sufficiently that you get more than lowest two octaves (hard to tell if it's on or off). Setting LR speakers to large or small only effects the high-pass (low rolloff, if you will) filter for those speakers, not the amount of bass sent to sub.

Check the manual pgs 34, 35, 46. I went online, where manual is available. Your DIRECT STEREO has no sub out. Normal STEREO (se MIX-DOWN section) has sub out but your setup should to sub must be SUB oR BOTH (I'd use both if your LR are full-range) then make sure you have setup appropriate sub levels and xover point. (pg 46)

You should be rocking in no time!

Michael

[Wester97]

I have it set to BOTH, and I've tried every dsp setting and it will still not output to the sub correctly. When I turn the output to SUB only, there is no output from the sub - it only works when it is set to BOTH.

I dont get it!

[MrMcGoo]

My best guesses are that: 1)you are using 2 RCA cables to tranfer an analog signal to your receiver, or 2) you are in direct mode.

You need to transfer your signal to the receiver in the digital form via a coaxial cable or Toslink cable. Bass management takes place on digital signals and not analog signals.

What connection are you using to get from the CD player to the receiver? How many cables are used????

Bill

[Wester97]

I'm using digital coax.

Is direct different from STRAIGHT?

It is not in either though - I've tried every dsp setting and the subwoofer icon does not come up. is there any way to reset the receiver to default settings?

[colterphoto1]

plug any receiver line out (like tape out) audio to Sub in. This way you'll be SURE there's an output signal, this will check to see if sub is operating at all. If you unplug sub RCA wire from receiver and use fingers to short across RCA plug the sub should hum a bit. I think your sub is bad.

[DrWho]

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On 12/27/2004 1:02:17 PM Wester97 wrote:

I have it set to BOTH, and I've tried every dsp setting and it will still not output to the sub correctly. When I turn the output to SUB only, there is no output from the sub - it only works when it is set to BOTH.

I dont get it!

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Ok, set it to both and then set your mains to the small setting. There are a couple of things happening here so I will try to explain them all...

Most of the bass management controls on recievers are intended for 5.1 movie formats. The .1 in the name is actually an entirely seperate channel which is sent only to the subwoofer. Telling your reciever that you have a subwoofer means that it will now send the .1 information to the subwoofer.

Setting your reciever to "both" tells the reciever that you have a sub and that you want it to play .1 information for the movies AND play all information below the crossover point of your mains. When your mains are set to large, the sub recieves content below the crossover point, but the mains also recieve content below the crossover point (and above for that matter). When set to small, the sub recieves all info below the crossover point and now the mains no longer recieve frequencies below the crossover.

One other thing to keep in mind is that a crossover frequency is not a brick wall. A crossover is basically an EQ where the farther you get from the crossover frequency, the quieter the signal gets. The rate of this slope is measured in dB/octave. So for every octave (an octave is doubling of frequency, you have a certain attenuation measured in dB). So if you crossover your mains at 80Hz with a 12db/octave slope, then at 40Hz your mains are sill playing information, however 12dB quieter than at 80Hz; at 20Hz it's 24dB quieter. I believe most recievers use a slope of 12dB/octave. Just keep in mind that your mains will indeed be playing information below the crossover, but your sub should be louder (provided you have everything set up correctly). Ideally, you want your sub and mains to be the same volume at the crossover point while also in phase.

Btw, the sub also sees the gradual slope: so with a crossover of 80Hz, the sub is 12dB quieter at 160Hz and 24dB quieter at 320Hz. To maintain a smoother frequency response, the crossover point usually marks where both speakers are attenuated 3dB quieter so that when you add the slopes together, you get a flat line. I only mention this for the sake of correctness, but if it's confusing, just know that the crossover is a slope and not a solid wall and your mains and subs should both be playing bass, just that your sub should be more dominate as the notes get lower. Btw, note that a change of 3dB is a doubling of power (or halving if you're getting quieter), but that it requires more like a 6dB change for our ears to hear a doubling of loudness. That said, a change of 12dB should be 4 times louder (or quieter) so don't think that your mains and sub will be close in volume (except right at the crossover frequency). For what it's worth, frequencyes from 80Hz to 100Hz tend to be the dominate low parts (thud) of the kick drum in most rock. There's a little more power from the kick in the 40-60Hz range where the low notes of the bass guitar and piano are also heard.

[Wester97]

I understand what everyone is telling me - you guys are full of great advice!

But the sub DOES work. It just seems to be getting the same signal as the floorstanding speakers. My receiver doesnt show that it is outputting to the sub, only the 2 front L/R speakers light up on the output diagram on the receiver display. Does that make sense?

[3dzapper]

I've just got to vent a peave. Not to steal Wester's thread but why the F do these geniuses have to make this stuff so complicated? There must be ten levels of settings on my Yami and each one only affects one DSP envrionment or movie type in 5.1. The manuals are unreadable or at least uncomprehensible and everything must be done on a trial and error basis anyhow.

All poor Wester wants to do is listen to his sub with his mains. Where is he Mickey D's where you can't get an egg sandwich after 10?

Wester, Here is a down and dirty way to get your sub and mains working together. Take a hank of speaker wire and run from your reciever to the KSW then run leads to your RFs. If you ever meet the "engineer" who designed the "logic" of your reciever, yell "BONZAI !!" as you hit him repeatedly with the remote! Give the SOB one for me too!

Rick

[Wester97]

I'm using monster bass cable to connect to the sub. I just dont get why it isnt workin correctly. It sounds good how it is right now, but I know it could sound better.

I emailed Yamaha - maybe they know. Any yamaha reciever owners have a similar problem or have any knowledge to share?

[colterphoto1]

if the sub is working, but the indicator light doesn't come on, you have a PRL malfunction. (Dr. Who will know this one - PRL is the Pretty Red Lights). Is there a problem with the funcionality of your SUB???? Or is just the display that bugs you?

The 'bass management' issue is such weird language. Realize that what you have is an electronic crossover inside your receiver. It is splitting the tonal spectrum at a point called the crossover before the signal goes to the amps. Like Who said, remember it's not an absolute point, but a slope. You choose the point by virtue of telling the software small/medium/large for your main speakers. The tones below this point get sent to the sub if you've told it you have one SUB YES or SUB BOTH. Then you get to tweak the tones going into sub by virtue of it's own internal crossover. So you can have your mains full range (LARGE) or filter out the low notes to save them (SMALL).

THere may be some modes where no sub output is called for. READ THE MANUAL. there will be no sub output from the receiver, therefore no sub sound will be heard. In almost no case will there be full range sound sent into the subs. If too many mid frequencies come out of the sub, decrease ITS crossover from 200 to say 80 or 60.

Hope this helps.

Michael

[Wester97]

Ok, I told the receiver that I had 6 speakers, during this all 6 lights turned on plus the subwoofer light. Then when I went back to listen all the lights except the 2 front L/R turned off. It is almost like it is outputting in 2ch. stereo. But that doesnt explain why it IS sending the sub a signal through RCA and that it doesnt change outputs in any DSP mode.

[kegman]

everything is working the way it suppose to work!

when you play cd's you don't have a subwoofer (.1) track!

so the light will not be lit!

Then you set your mains to small with sub on!

Adjust the xover freq to what you want and your done!

to get the sub light to come on you have to send the reciever

a .1/suwoofer signal like from a movie or dvd audio that

has a subwoofer track!

The reason it comes on and you get sound when you test is

because the yamaha reciever turns it on and sends it a test signal!