popbumper Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 All: Certainly NOT bringing this up to fuel a fire, and have no opinion of my own, but was at the bookstore this evening and ran across an article in the latest HI-FI+ (issue 34) which has an article about blind testing cables (title was something like, "High-end cables: real difference or just a pile of Jacksons"?). Interesting reading, no doubt. I'm sure you can guess which way the cards fell, but for the uninformed/interested, a good read. Check it out. Popbumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Well.. Let us know!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Popbumper, What was your take on the article and testing? I haven't read the magazine, but did see a thread in AA discussing it. One poster there noted that the second to cheapest cable came in first in sound preference. Was this so? The cable issues are so subjective. And expensive for experimentation. I think I have decided that it is about the least cost effective tweak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 The cable debate will continue,as long as people have disposable income.You'd think by now most everyone would understand a cable can only degrade a signal,not make it better.That said,if I had a $500k system I'd prolly spend a few $k on cables anyway just for looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted December 29, 2004 Author Share Posted December 29, 2004 Daddy Dee: I thought the article/effort was reasonable in it's approach; yes, the second to last cable did do well, though the cheapest cable ($55/meter, $90/five meters) came in dead last. Of course the most expensive one was near $5000/five meters, and won "hands down". They used two individuals who had some experience in audio, and one who did not. They also used three selections of music (one as orchestration), and some high end equipment to demonstrate it on. While I thought that the test was at minimum "viable", I am nonetheless suspect of a "high end" magazine with "high end" cable advertisements where the "high end" cables win. Also, for most of us, the "market segment" of cables chosen would be far out of most people's reach. If perhaps someone would come up with a legitimate blind testing of "consumer cables" (AR, Blue Jeans, Monster, etc.), I would be quite interested to see the results. After all, my excess cash is usually spent for caviar lunches on my yacht. Popbumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 The DOLLAR to PERFORMANCE ratio is the part that I have trouble with. However, we often have gear that costs more; it's all cumulative to the speakers... But I have to agree with DaddyDee, it does seem to be the least cost effective tweak. So I only go as far as spendy interconnects, and leave the cabling for when I win the lottery. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Y'all have heard me say this before. Popbumper reports a "study" of 3 subjects, 3 cables and 3 music venues which qualifies a 100% Bose$hit. When someone does a study comprised of at least 100 subjects using no more than 2 cables and one music venue then the research design may result in some assessment with statistical validity. Too many variables and way too few participants. Consider also that any valid research is subject to "peer" review. So after getting past a tough editorial technical battery it becomes open to serious inquiry as to design and interpretation. When someone can actually reproduce the same results using the same research design then the data interpretation becomes clear and warranted (good, bad or otherwise). Whether these people want to accept it or not scientific procedure and postulates apply if they indeed wish to have some useful purpose to the work. Elsewise it's just smoke and mirrors and the paper it's printed on worthy of papering a bird cage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 I thought that HiFi was dead an gone. I used to have a subscription. Is there another one? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Oscarsear has it exactly right! Three listeners does not make a statistically valid test, particularly when they do not represent the general population and were probably self-chosen (ie volunteered or were editors of the magazine, etc.) I've said this before on Forum. Mathmatically you must have 30 or more in the sample to make any valid conclusions. There are numerous other variables, but most of these audio test I have read about are a bunch of dingo's kidneys. BTW, out of around 400 people who were in my IU School of Business class, I got the highest score in Econ E270 Statistics. 3.85 cum. GPA. so there! Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaffstone Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 As I recall the 95% confidence interval is around 1.96 times the first standard deviation whose denominator is n for data sets larger than 20 and n-1 for for data sets smaller than 20. (not 30 as stated) Even small data sets will yeild valid results, just not high confidence intervals. Statistics are a funny thing: consider that on average everyone has one breast and one ********. Back to the subject, within reason, I don't believe that the wires make a lot of difference. Having said that, I always buy high quality wires, especially for interconnects where shielding is important to avoid noise. At 100 dB per watt I doubt any reasonable speaker wire would offer any significant resistance to the current required. In the end, listen for yourself and decide if you can hear a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 There is also the lack of a control in this test. There needs to be at least one group of people that heard the exact same cable everytime AND do this for every cable. Then you need another larger group of people that blindly needs to determine which cable is which. Because of our short acoustical memories, it'd be best for this group to only test two cables at a time. After conducting various tests of two at a time, each person should then listen to every cable and be told that it's a certain letter. Then they should listen to every cable again blindly and determine which cable is which letter. To make the results even more solid, this entire experiment should be repeated on all sorts of different systems. I remember reading about another test where the cable was the exact same everytime and yet "trained ears" declared they heard a difference. I read another article that used machines to measure differences between cables and the results came down to a direct correlation with the measured impedance of the wire. When it comes down to it, it's the guage and length of the wire that make the biggest difference. The conductivity of the metal in the wire only determines the maximum length and minimum diameter. So if you're using a lower quality cable and are noticing problems, then moving to a lower guage wire (larger diameter) of the same quality should solve any problem you encounter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I thought it was at least 30 observations for each independant variable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 My wire war story: I ran copper speaker cables, like they sell at Home Depot, for over a decade. Compared to the thin stuff, with ultra-sensitive big ole horns, like the Klipsch Cornwalls, I certainly noticed a different difference; something on the order of a 1 or a 2, where Stereophile magazine recommended speakers are 8s, 9s and 10s. I finally upgraded to basic Monster cable, found at Tweeter/Sound Advice, and again noticed a different difference. A few years ago, I invested in another set of the same Monster cable, but with better terminal connections, in order to experiment with running a double set of wires from speaker to amp. Again, I noticed a pleasing different difference for the money invested. So maybe this was simply what the God of Monster Amplifiers, Nelson Pass, says: that the better connection is what really matters. Last year, I was asked to review Coincident Technologys thick gray rattlesnakes, the CST 1 loudspeaker cables from Israel Blume in Canada, for EnjoyTheMusic.com. He then cancelled the request (I didnt drool over his Triumph Signature loudspeakers), but I instantly loved the smooth feeling, increased detail and bargain price of his cables after only one listen with my flea-powered tube Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour amplifiers - and kept them. Although several times more expensive, they too made a different difference, especially with Klipschs big ole corner horn, the classic Khorn. Now these fat babies have spades as wide as your thumb, which works great with the Paramours big stud gold posts so that may one reason for the different difference. I love em. They are a low cost improvement to my home movie and music reproduction system. I know the theory and I know the practice. I like the Coincident CST 1 rattlesnake cables over the Monster cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormdoggy Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 So overall, and I know this is a individual preference, which speaker cable would you folks recommend. I mean within a reasonable price range? Cheers...........oh and ............Happy New Year to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaffstone Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 I use monster cable, or philips audio cable from wallmart. I've seen bulk speaker cable at musiciansfriend.com pretty reasonably priced and low gauge (thick). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Here's my logic, get the ones that are just 1-step above what you can most easily afford or that fit your budget. That way, you'll incur just enough financial pain to keep you from "upgrading" at a faster rate than you REALLY "need". DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.