Solid State and Tube together?

[texican58]

Forum members,

This may be obvious to many of you, but it's foreign to me.

Any time I see systems that have multiple amps, either bridged/coupled/etc. together, I wonder why. The more I read the more it appears that some either like or need to drive their speakers with multiple sources (amps dedicated to subs, dedicated to bi-amping, etc.)

I have (2) Cornwalls and (2) AR L980s. I'm adding a center and a sub soon. I recently bought a Yamaha VX2400 7.1 A/V receiver (plenty of power) and I already have a Hafler SE120 amp/preamp. (The CWs have better fidelity with the Hafler.)

My worries originally were that they didn't perform/sound full until I really threw volume/power at them. I discussed this issue w/ multiple people and finally bought the Yamaha, thinking the issue was power (apparently not the case). Still, the Cornwalls don't sound like I had expected. I'm not sure if my expectations are too high, or if my logic/theory/guidance is completely wrong.

I popped the rears of the CWs open last night, and a visual inspection of the innards..."pristine"! I see nothing wrong on the drivers, the horns, or the x-over. I know that visual inspection may not suffice, but things look fantastic inside.

My desire is to have both an awesome 2-channel system, but also enjoy HT-surround\, and I was hoping that I could use the CWs as my mains, maybe add a Heresy for a center, and use some existing AR/ADS L980s as rears (sub to be added later). I'm still not sure that I can't do this... but it appears that for the fidelity I desire w/ my CWs, I either need to drive them w/ a tube amp(the Hafler), re-do the CW crossovers so that a SS amp will work for all speakers, or segregate the system among multiple amps (both SS and tube). I've been told that there's a large difference in fidelity b/t the sound of tube vs. SS.

Is there any way that I can utilize the features of my new Yamaha A/V amp as a switching device for inputs/video/rear-and-sub driving, while using my Hafler to drive the CWs and a Heresy center? I guess I would basically be using both amps simultaneously.

Notes and Scenarios:

Note 1: My Acoustic Research ADS L980s can be bi-amped and like lots of power.

Note 2: My Cornwalls should sound great with little power.

Scenario 1: Simultaneously, use the Hafler tube-amp for my mains and center (CWs and Heresy) while using the S.S. Yamaha for the sub and rears (high-current/power).

Scenario 2: Sacrifice the "wonder" of the CW sound by using the Yamaha exclusively for HT-surround (movie watching), and then switching to the Hafler when listening to music (2-channel).

Any advice is appreciated.

texican58

[Daddy Dee]

texican,

Your scenario sounds workable to me. IMO it will be worth the little inconvenience of makine some changes for the better two channel configuration.

There's not a problem mixing SS and tube components. When using preamp and poweramp seperates, if one unit is tube, one is likely to have more pleasing outcome if the preamp is the tube unit. The preamp seems to have the larger role in giving the sound it's particular signature.

[Coytee]

Im not sure if this will answer your question, but I crossed this idea earlier and spoke with Mark Deneen just earlier today about this.

I recently bought his Juicy Music Peach preamp. It has a HT switch on it.

By using the HT switch, I can utilize my HT system AND have a dedicated 2 ch system.

Here is how it would work.

Take the HT system and hook it all up just like youd want it EXCEPT for the 2 speakers you want to use in 2 channel. In my case, rear speakers.

Take the pre-outs from the HT (for the rear speakers), plug them into the back of the Peach. The Peach has a HT switch on it that will allow you to A/B SOURCES. With the switch on regular (verses HT), any incoming signal will be CONTROLLED by the peach (volume/gain) and the signal will go to the power amp that is plugged into the backside of the Peach.

Conversely hit the HT button and the 2 channels from your HT pre outs will pass through UN-affected by the peach (no gain control, or any other kind of enhancementits strictly a hard wired pass through) and you now have a HT system with the HT head unit powering all of your speakers EXCEPT for the 2 connected to the Peach. The amp connected to the Peach will power those two while in HT mode, and (with the button switched) in regular mode.

Upshot of it all is you will end up having two amps in your HT unit (say 2 out of 7?) that will be unused. They will be replaced by the amps that you use in your 2-ch setup.

Let me rephrase part of that.

The amp connected to the Peach, will ALWAYS power the speakers connected to it. The question is, what is the source. With the HT button in HT mode, the source will be your HT unit. So, any processing, volume control will ALL be controlled by that unit and the functions of the Peach will be sitting idle. Move it OUT of HT mode, and the Peach takes over as the controller of your source and your HT amp outputs will be ignored.

So, you would go into room, decide what you are going to listen to. If you listen to 2 channel, youd turn your Peach and amp on & have at it. If you wanted to listen to HT, youd turn your HT system on AND the Peach, and the amp connected to the peach. You would then switch the Peach into HT mode and your HT unit would control everything.

There will be a test to follow

[texican58]

I know it's hard to put into words, Coytee, but you did an amazing job of grasping the concept COMPLETELY! That's exactly what I want except for the position of the speakers (I want to use my fronts(CWs) through my preamp and amp and let the HT A/V amp do the other stuff).

This will take some serious diagramming and studying but I'm glad to hear that the idea has been kicked around a bit and can be made to work.

thanks,

texican58

[Coytee]

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On 2/2/2005 6:10:13 PM texican58 wrote:

I know it's hard to put into words, Coytee, but you did an amazing job of grasping the concept COMPLETELY! That's exactly what I want except for the position of the speakers (I want to use my fronts(CWs) through my preamp and amp and let the HT A/V amp do the other stuff).

This will take some serious diagramming and studying but I'm glad to hear that the idea has been kicked around a bit and can be made to work.

thanks,

texican58

----------------

Whoohoo, I finally made a comment that helped someone and didn't start a cola war!!

this just happned to be fresh on my mind because this is what I'm planning.

In your case, if your HT unit and your 2ch system were grouped together, you could use your front channels like I'm using my rears.

My room dictates my Khorns go in only 1 pair of corners. If the HT unit/screen is on that side of room, then ALL will be focused on that end of the room. My wife is currently dictating that the HT unit/screen is going on the OPPOSITE wall. so, if my wife wins my Khorns become the rear channels. If she gives in and lets me "flip" the room over, then I win.

Point being, you can swap what I said for rear, for mains and there is no reason you can't do it.

My understanding is, the diagramming would be fairly easy.

Hook up your HT system. Take the 2 interconnects going from your preouts to main in on the HT system and simply redirect them over to the Peach HT input. connect your power amp to the Peach output and you are done.

Of course, this presupposes you have a Peach or end up with one.

I have one I'll sell you for $45,000, but you MIGHT be able to get it cheaper from Mark directly???

[ricktate]

Tex if the Corns are not loud with the power you have loosen and retighten all crossover connetions,look for drivers not working.15 watts into a Cornwall should be LOUD.Rick

[rtaylor]

Have you checked your speaker connections on both the amp and speaker side, out of phase would be a guess.

[rtaylor]

Have you checked your speaker connections on both the amp and speaker side, out of phase would be a guess.

[texican58]

Sorry that it took me this long to respond to my OWN post and forum member comments/help. I simply forgot about this post. (IDIOT!!!)

I've been reading the forum and learning more every day. The CWs are not loud unless I throw some power at them. On my Yammy, -15db is what I would consider loud. -10 is really loud.

I've checked the connections (inside the cabinets) and phasing. Both are fine.

Based on some recent topics, I've begun to question if my '78 CW x-overs are in need of a tune-up (old caps begin to act like resistors?). I would suppose that I could buy the 'oil can' caps and replace them myself pretty easily, but to make them more musical and 'full', I'm thinking of just buying new x-overs so that I can eliminate them as culprits.

I do believe that if I ever find a tube amp to test them with, I will be able to determine much more than I know now re: Amps (SS vs. tube).

Thanks for the responses.

mitch

[soundog]

I have an all heritage HT that I control and drive with my Outlaw 950 preamp and a Outlaw 7100 7 channel amp. For CDs, I run them through Perpetual Technologies DACs/processing devices and jitter reduction devices then into a 2 channel Dynaco tube preamp into the 950 preamp (which has a bypass feature) into two channels of the 7100 and then to my Khorns. I think I get the best of a tube sound with the power of my solid state amp ( for solid, powerful bass) yet with a flick of a switch I have the full HT available and with another flick I have a tube sound for music.