Installed AK-3's in Khorns - not too good

[D-MAN]

Dean, sorry dude, but I gotta do it. You're one of my favorites here, so don't take this personally, (although converting you could get me a pair of wings).

There is no tweak left untweaked that I fear to explore, except those which I cannot afford, of course. Any sensible person would do the same!? But playing with wires is a cheap tweak (or is it a cheap thrill?)...

What I cannot understand is why anyone who would accept the idea that tubes sound different than transistors, capacitors sound different from each other due to various proprietary production techniques, transformers and coils have different qualities to their "iron", and cannot agree to the notion that wires and their makeup also alter the sound. Well, I find all of the above to be true, with some reservations, like WHICH AMPS, WHICH CAPS, etc.

There are elements of sound that we cannot measure but we apply terms to in order to describe them such as "depth", "solidity", "imaging", "clarity", "sound-staging", "live", "veiled", "sparkle", "glare", etc. But we all know them when we hear them. But there is no test devised that can quantify any of them.

Wires effect the sound field elements that produce these aspects of perception, whether electrically measurable or not. There is a difference between being mathematically insignificant or below the measuring threshold (which is predetermined by the equipment, and somewhat arbitrary considerations), and being non-existant.

There are alot of us who think that it is a valid area of exploration, and is just another tool to control the listening experience, somewhat analagous to applying room treatments. No, they may not work for you, it's not the same room or equipment, but the concept is still valid.

I've been reading F. Alton Everest's book "Master Handbook of Acoustics" that Artto recommended. It is very enlightening on some of the issues of audio perception.

The calculations required in considering possible and resultant room modes is quite daunting. The calculations and permutations of reflected, refracted, difracted, and direct soundwaves in any given environment are not actually measurable due to the complexities involved, unless you want to spend a lifetime doing it. But that doesn't make it mathematically insignificant or non-existant. Nor does it mean that a satisfactory listening experience is not possible in the same environment, given some effective treatment. What treatment to use and where is the question.

I am certain of the wiring issue, though, based on personal experimentation. I would agree that SOME wires are MORE effective than others in their respective purposes (exactly like signal caps), like interconnects being the most effective, and then down the signal chain.

But the BIGGEST bang for no bucks at all is the crossover- to-woofer connection. If you think you have bass now, simply double it up to the woofer with a two wire run, and see if you don't get more. No matter how bad or thin or cheap the wire is, it will be LOUDER and that's a fact. (I suppose that if you already have an 8 ga. wire, the effect might be less).

I get accused here of being able to hear the unhearable, but from my point of view, those accusing me must be deaf, or simply haven't tried it.

DM

[D-MAN]

Greg, I've been thinking more about your lack of bass issue.

1) the bass output is reduced.

a) has to be less signal getting to the woofer, possible culprits:

a1) the crossover is wired incorrectly

b1) the woofers and/or horns are damaged or unseated

c1) the crossover insertion loss is too high

(most likely)

d1) the wiring is damaged between the woofer and crossover

e1) the low pass coil is bad (depends on layout)

the woofers are out of polarity with each OTHER effectively cancelling put the bass output (been there!)

this would be less noticable up close to the individual cabinet, but would be more apparent as one

moves away.

c) the bass horns are unsealed from the corners (been there, too!)

DM

[greg928gts]

I unsoldered the wires from the tweeters and the woofers, got rid of all the funky connectors, and connected the wires from the AK-3's directly to the tweeters and the woofers. The sound was much better. Really. I noticed that the bass was warmer, not real deep bass, but the vocals are what I really noticed, instead of sounding squawky, they sounded full.

There was no more of the irritating snap or overly crisp sound coming from the tweeters anymore. I would really have to say that something was up with the connectors, the quantity of connectors. By the way, all the polarities were correct.

I still think there's something not quite right. I may put the other crossovers back in to get a reference to where it was before. It's very difficult to remember sound.

I wasn't as impressed with the midrange tonight as I was last night.

I put the Mac 2205 on the Khorns to see if more power would change the balance that I was hearing between the woofers and the upper horns. It brought back memories . . . of vibrating knick knacks off of tables, and pictures off of walls! Wow! Power! That's what that sounds like!

But, no difference in the balance. At high volume levels, like with 100 watts into the Khorns, the bass is huge, but of course everything is huge with 100 watts into Khorns. As the volume drops down to what I've been listening to with the flea amps, the bass thins out to what it was before wih the flea amps. I guess I'd have to rule out the flea amps as being the problem with my perception of less bass.

Getting rid of the connectors definately made a difference, but I need to go back to the other crossovers to really know.

I don't know, I'm tired, can't think anymore.

Greg

[DrWho]

You may possibly have an issue with an old wire that has either oxidized or somehow lost it's conductivity. Just recently I was rebuilding a subwoofer driver and the leads going between the voice coil and the speaker connection appeared perfectly fine. The first time I tested the speaker, I got absolutely no sound and my heart sunk...i figured, crank the amp a bit more and see what happens, still no sound. I then started examining my wiring job and bumped one of the leads. I almost got knocked over by the sound. I jumped back and the sound died away. I touched the lead again and it started playing again. That said, you might consider checking all the old cabling and see if you might not have a similar problem. For testing purposes, you can just grab any old wire and use tape (or your fingers) to create a temporary connection. Test one speaker at a time so that you don't have to worry about phase issues. If this doesn't help, then it's back to testing each part in the crossovers

[Deang]

Greg -- you said:

"...but the vocals are what I really noticed, instead of sounding squawky, they sounded full."

You then said:

"...I wasn't as impressed with the midrange tonight as I was last night."

How tired are you exactly?

Did resoldering the wires resolve the problem with the "bad" side Klipschorn? Personally, I would just completely rebuild both networks. I'm sure everyone is surprised to hear me say this.

[Piranha]

I am

[greg928gts]

Yeah, I was pretty tired. What I meant was that I could hear the midbass out of the bass horn and that's what was filling out the low end of the vocal range. It's not that I'm unhappy with the midrange, just a comment that it didn't strike me the same last night as the night before. Maybe it was the moon or the weather?

How long would I have to wait for a pair of DHAXovers? Sp?

Greg

[sunnysal]

do the one driver at a time, polarity swapping dance...before rebuilding, etc.

[ricktate]

Gregg i have been thinking on your problem about your K-Horn problem about lack of bass.In the process of rebuilding the ones i got i found out the airchamber had big leaks also when i reinstalled the woofer mount i noticed there is alot of room foor misalignment.Solution....i sealed the air chamber with silicone and wood glue dripped into the wings sides when i did this glue actually ran out into the throat of the bass bin had to turn bass bin upside down to do this on both ends though...big leak huh.Then on the alignment problem i measured the slot on the mount and on the motor board drew lines where it would make the slot exactly in the center...it is possible to get this way off if you dont do this... it moves about 3/4 of an inch if i remember right. If you want to check the airtightness of the airchamber its easy to do.Rick

[D-MAN]

Greg,

If the wires worked before, they should work with the A3 too. But it is probably an insertion loss associated with the A3 crossovers that is reducing the bass. The fact that you report the mids and highs to not be as reduced is suspicious, though, as an insertion loss should effect all drivers at the same time more or less equally. So that is a mystery. Let's look into the low pass coil, what are its values, what gauge, etc. Is it air or ferrite core, etc.

What gauge of wire is used in the crossover? Is there a fuse holder and fuse?

You can optimise the response to a slight degree by playing around with the wires, but I am becoming convinced that the issue is with the crossovers in question, rather than something suddenly going bad in both horns at the same time.

I would go back to the other A-type crossovers to ensure that everything is ok and sounds the way you expect. That would eliminate any wiring issues as the culprit. I probably threw in a red herring talking about wires. It can be used to tweak the bass a bit, but that won't solve the problem that you report.

DM

[greg928gts]

I guess I'll try some polarity switching per Tony's idea first, then I think I will try the previous crossover again to get back to what I had before and see how that compares.

I was surprised that taking out the multiple connectors made as big a difference as it did.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

Greg