Erik Mandaville Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Let me preface this by saying that what I want to share has only to do with my own thinking and listening impressions. As was also the case with the Klipsch 'minibox' and later Lexicon processor, my intention is simply to share the results of an experiment as it related to us. Brief background history: About 1 year ago, I was in the electronics store I go to for some things that Radio Shack doesn't carry (which seems to be more and more these days). On display and being demonstrated at the back of the store were a pair of off-brand speakers that sounded much larger than the sort of 'average' sized drivers would suggest. Whatever music was playing (can't remember what it was), was being reproduced with real clarity, punch, and weight. It drew my attention, and I walked over to where the setup was. The owner of the store, who has seen me poking through bins of resistors and capacitors many times, walked up behind me and said, in effect, "Pretty amazing sound, huh?" I replied in the affirmative, and asked what amplification was being used. "It's right there in front between the speakers," he said as he lifted the cloth or towel that was keeping the component out of view. "That's the amp?!" I replied in disbelief. "Yup!" was the answer, which was also followed by a friendly sales pitch, "Only $25, 18 watts a channel." I didn't say this out loud, but quietly thought to myself that the thing was a light-weight piece of plastic junk, that for a power supply used a clunky step-down transformer and AC/DC converter plugged into the wall. "Not bad," I mumbled, and walked off to the bins of capacitors and resistors. I was on a mission to get some parts for the big and heavy tube monoblocks at home -- my serious amplifiers for serious music-listening. Yesterday: We happened to be near the store yesterday morning, and just for fun I decided to go in to see if they still had those $25 amplifier. I found a bunch of them lying at the foot of one of the speakers that I had listened to a year before. I bought it; took it home; prepared the speaker leads in a way that I could connect them with wire nuts to the cables going to our Klipschorns; found a bit of a thump from in-rush at the turn of the volume control/power switch; and then rebalanced the amplifier with the Lexicon and SPL meter. It warmed up for about an hour. Brill Frisell (I always forget how to spell his last name, so pardon me if that's wrong...) was the first of many CDs we listened to, but it was nothing short incredible. Honestly, I simply could not believe the sound produced by the very light-weight black plastic box. While having a slight upward tilt in frequency response, which was subsequently compensated for by the Lexicon, the sound was superb, and very easily something I could live with for years to come. I have to admit that it was a little hard to accept. I think my thinking has been rather cultivated or trained to believe that there is a direct relationship between a components physical weight and its performance. This notion was completely shattered yesterday afternoon by an amp that weighs less than the pocket dictionary just to the left of this keyboard. Completely, utterly shattered. So what's inside the box? I have no idea, but am going to open it up later this morning to look inside to see. In the end, it illustrates that, unlike the heavy power and output transformers that have been associated with 'good music' for generations, there does not have to be a correlation between a components 'heft' and the kind of sound it produces. I think heavy components have helped ME feel as if I were getting my hard-earned money's worth, but what we got yesterday, both in terms of physical weight and performance, went completely against the grain of all my previous experience with audio and music making machines. This small, $25 black plastic box is going to be our main amplifier until I can find something similar for all three channels. I learned yesterday, with the help of another forum member, that just such an animal is available! Since we won't need nearly as much power for the Heresies and rear channel speakers, I will be using the Horus/Hori for the side channels, and Moondogs for the rears. The surrounds are or will be rolled off at 120 cycles, so will not need high wattage amplification. If down the road we find we still prefer the vacuum tube technology we have been using for the past 15 years or so, the answer and solution is simple: we can plug them back into the Klipschorns at any time. However, I would have honestly been happy with the peformance if we had spent a few thousand dollars in order to get the quality of sound from this small plastic box and wall-transformer-power supply. Erik edit: I meant to also suggest the possibility that the differences what we heard between this new amplifier and the SETs we have been using may be very much related to their power differences. I just don't know for sure. I have been looking through some old schematics, and found a PP 6L6 based stereo amp that I can build for about $275 using Hammond power and output transformers. That's pretty cheap for a decent tube amp, and would make for a fun summer project. The important thing for ME to remember is that none of this needs to be carved in stone, and we can switch amps around anytime. My feeling is that it will be hard for some to believe or indeed accept that this amplifier can sound as good, and in fact very possibly better, than the very expensive Horus amps. $25 is the approximate cost for one of the machined aluminum feet on the Hori chassis! edit #2: Audio and listening to music just doesn't need to be so serious! When people have put very significant amounts of time and money into their coveted audio systems, it's no wonder that a certain degree of skepticism might start to float in the air when someone mentions the FACT that very, very good performance does not have to cost absurd amounts of money. If purchased retail and sold in a chassis machined from a solid block of aluminum and clad with the most rare and difficult to obtain wood from Chad or the mountains of southern Yemen, that $275 PP 6L6 amp mentioned above would cost at least a few thousand dollars. If given the option, I would build it myself in the least expensive and ubiqutous chassis from Hammond. I have the ability to make that choice, but I will say it's something that took a huge amount of reading, study, and hard work to achieve. I didn't come into the world knowing how to build amplifiers or anything else, but I was curious enough to learn enough about the technology to make my own equipment. When I know somethinig sounds good to me, I could care less about its 'topology' or 'output' device. This little amp sounded good to me, and it's cost couldn't be more beside the point. For me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 interesting, but what is so secert about the name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 12, 2005 Author Share Posted March 12, 2005 What a friendly expression, Colin. There's nothing secret about the name. This thing came in a clear plastic bag, and the only name on the black plastic box is 'Audiophile.' That's it, nothing more. Have a good day, Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2RockU Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 ...OK ERIK, What store did ya find this "magic" $25 box ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 So Erik, what's IN the box? Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 model number? RS, right, SA-155? retails for $60? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 oh no, I see it isn't Radio crap, what is the name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Erik, Thanks for the interesting post. Kind of rings true with my experience of the tripath amps in Sonic Impact and Teac units. It's an experience that leaves one wondering. I'm not pitching my tube gear, but these little rascals have definitely got my attention. I'd like to acquire one of these amps you have discovered. Would you be available to post some contact info on the store and/or the amp. Thanks. p.s. I've been ruminating about what to put together for my wife's system in her new house (our work continues to require two households). I'll run her system on Heresy II's, but yesterday set up the Teac tripath, a $125 Toshiba DVD/SACD player and got a Hafler preamp/tuner out of the closet. I wasn't expecting much and kept listening for the harshness or hash that I'd expected to hear over the Khorns. Didn't hear it. She doesn't listen nearly as loud as I do anyway. This system will sound great on Heresy's also. Pretty amazing in the bang for the buck category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 12, 2005 Author Share Posted March 12, 2005 That's correct, Colin. It's not made by Radio Shack, nor was it purchased from a Radio Shack store. It's from a 'true' electronics parts store. Leo: I don't know what's inside -- haven't checked yet. The power supply transformer and amplifier are made in Taiwan, by a company that appears to be called 'Audiophile Multi-Media.' It's just a powerful statement about the relationship between aesthetic qualities and sound - which does not exist. I could have just as easily built an amplifier into a metal bread baking pan from Target, and it wouldn't sound any better or worse than if the chassis were machined from a solid block of aluminum. This isn't to say that 'looks' aren't imporatant, however they have become less so for me in recent years. The chassis is just the 'house' of the circuit, and a circuit, so far as I know, does not have an opinion concerning the architecture or interior design of its abode. I think an all-metal chassis is an improvement over wood in terms of RFI/EMI immunity, although for some the combination of wood and metal top and bottom plates would be easier on the eyes. One could actually have the best of both. Craig: EPO. This thing may not at all be an improvement over what you have, which is really good sounding and far more powerful than our SET amps. It might have a pretty tough time competing with your Baldwin and MC-30s. Did you get those new tubes? One caveat is the in-rush current turn-on thump. What I'm going to try is a little home-made power outlet, that has a thermistor connected in series with the hot side of the outlet. I could actually put a couple of them in series, which would present and initial resistance at turn on, and then settle down to a resistance of a few ohms -- which might be helpful here since our voltage runs just slightly high. Some soft-start circuits are really complicated, and I don't know if the CL-60 thermistors I have will do the trick, but they might help reduce the DC thump at least a little. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 12, 2005 Author Share Posted March 12, 2005 Dee: I think you are right about the Tripath possibility. And, I see you know about the TEAC! I am looking into one of those, since, being 3-channel amplifiers, might work perfectly as our front channel/s amp. The turn on thump can be a little alarming, but I'm going to work on that. I think it would also be better to put the circuit in similarly sized metal chassis, and Radio Shack has just such a one for a few dollars. They do have some useful stuff there! I could install better speaker jacks, but need to stick with the RCAs that are there since they are surface mount circuit board parts. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 12, 2005 Author Share Posted March 12, 2005 Iniside: This is a little transistor amp. A 12 volt AC input to a small bridge rectifier and CRC filter circuit, and then onto the amp circuitry. The output is provided by a small transistor for each channel, which are mounted on a good sized aluminum heat sink. There are upgrade possibilties! Maybe I should go for a nice Black Gate filter cap at four times the cost of the whole amp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 darn, can't find it online... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2RockU Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Now ya know the next statement is................... Start the pictures, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 12, 2005 Author Share Posted March 12, 2005 Mark: Let me look again. I just popped the lid off quickly, and put it back on again. Don't think I saw any ICs inside, though... Craig: You want pictures of this thing!? I don't have the camera at home. It's just a cheap black plastic box sort of thing -- very light weight. It's capable of some huge sound with Klipschorns, though. No, it's probably not the end all amp, but for $25???!!! It's just kind of fun! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Using a digital pre-amp with SET tube amps?!?!!?? Digitally processing your music?!?!?! Using an amp that costs less then some CD boxed sets?!?!?!?! Get out the tar and feathers...... When you look inside again can you check for a part number on the output transistor? I wonder if it is one of the 'chip' amps. As far as the power on thump that isn't great. The inrush limiter might help there but you might need to build a little 5 second timing circuit and put a NO relay on the outputs of the amp. That way 5 seconds after the amp turns on it gets connected to the speakers. Or since it is a very small little amp that probably isn't taking a lot of juice just leave it on all the time. Have fun, Shawh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 12, 2005 Author Share Posted March 12, 2005 I know, I should be forced to walk around with a large letter 'T' (for transistor) embroidered to the front of my shirt! Come to think of it, I know how to do embroidery, and could make it self imposed DIY version of Nethanial Hawthorne's 'Scarlet Letter'! "Or since it is a very small little amp that probably isn't taking a lot of juice just leave it on all the time." It really doesn't get very warm at all, nor does the step down transformer. It's true, Shawn, I have found a very satisfactory combination of old and new technology. The Lexicon is very much the nerve center of our system, and it is a superb line stage in addition to being an amazingly flexible signal processor. A time delay is a good idea, and I have found a couple that I think would work for it. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Oh, what a sad day indeed when the mighty Horus/Moondog monoblocks are regulated to surround duty, being replaced by a $25 plastic box with (horror) transistors inside! Damn digital amps...now I know how the venerable steam locomotive must've felt when it was sent to the iron scrapyard, watching its existence die away with the advent of the ugly, boxy diesel engines that replaced it. Too sad for words... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. I predict the triode oddiophiles who jumped ship for a $25 wonder box will be back in the SET saddle before long, and really appreciate the perspective that the respite offered! My SI sits silent in a corner somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 I don't know if I'd ever be able to rely on Erik's advice. As much as I like Erik, he seem to get exited and only find the good points in every piece of gear that he throws in his system. It just seem too weird to me. OTOH, I'm the exact opposite. I hardly ever get excited about equipment and I do audition a lot of gear. It might be just like the difference in our own personalities and me being more of a negative kind of guy (and Erik being too positive ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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