BillH2121 Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 I'm currently using a MC2102 amp and C26 preamp to drive my RF7s. I have an old Dual 510 TT that I recently outfitted with a new Shure M97xE cart. I'm in the process of selling my old MC2125 and think I will get approx $1000 for it. My original plan was to use those funds to purchase a C32 or C33 preamp to replace my C26. What would give the most "bang for the buck" - an upgraded preamp or a $1000 TT? After reading Max's descripton of the new $1000 wonder TT, I tempted to go TT and continuew to use my C26 for a year or so until I can get another preamp. I listen to vinyl about 70% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 TT. Especially if you do 70% vinyl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 I don't think the phono section of the C33 is a huge improvement over the C26. If I were you I'd pop for a new table. In the used market you can pick up a pretty nice table in the $1000-$1500 price range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 TT. No question. That'll be a much more significant upgrade then the pre. Also, I'd spend some serious time contemplating what pre you want to buy. Some have much better phono stages then others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted March 22, 2005 Author Share Posted March 22, 2005 garymd - I know what you're getting at - but I'm a diehard Mac fan. I eventualy plan to get either a C2200 or C45 (in approx 2 years). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Ok Mark - that is bizzare!! Generally I advise people, when buying new, to match arm and cart together (and therefore buy them together). Arm/cart is probably the most critical interaction on a vinyl setup. To buy a cart - put it on your old arm and then later upgrade to a better arm (after the pre-amp??) stikes me as a truely *** about face way of doing things. When buying new TT's, and often when buying second hand the buyer is looking at a complete front end. Any new/used TT that sells for $1000 and is on the money will kill the Dual setup stone dead. I am bored with pimping Project - so go take a look at Music Hall. I am not sure what model you get for $1000 in the US but I am willing to bet it is very good value for money. Alternatively, save another $500 up and go for the Scout. Worst case scenario - it is the second best new analogue buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 "he was taking a step-wise solution to improving his rig. Why not put the biggest improvements first?" I missed that somewhere along the line. Hmmm - still no, sorry. I cant claim to be familiar with all the old Duals - and I do not know what model he has, but those that I have seen have dreadful arms on them - that ULM arm, for example was a disaster and a half (ULM = ultra low mass). I think the shure he has on it is probably ideal for the arm if it is that one. The problem is that we are going back to the day when the industry believed that lower tracking weights meant less groove damage. In fact lower tracking weight meant more damage as the needle was more prone to bounce out of the groove (with a few notable exceptions). All of this means that if he puts any half way decent modern cartridge on a Dual arm we will get the "tail wagging the dog" scenario and some serious mistracking / vinyl damage. Sonically it may actually be worse! Of course you could argue that putting a modern arm and cartridge on the Dual would have similar problems. Modern arms are built expecting a certain level of isolation. Dual suspension was always rudimentary, mass inadequate and the quality of bearings suspect. Now I think about it I am almost tempted to say table first. As it is I dont think step by step is the way to go here. (PS I am getting harsher in my old age - sorry about that and no offense intended to those that own Duals. They have just not aged all that well. Damn I upset Edmond with the VPI/Project thing and now all Dual owners - I better keep my mouth shut from now on.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted March 23, 2005 Author Share Posted March 23, 2005 Old dual = "POS" - OUCH!!(yeah I know) To clarify, My plan has been to obtain a C32 or C33 to use for 2-3 years until I get a C2200 or C45. However, if a new TT would provide a more noticable sound improvement, I would go that way and keep the C26 for that time. I don't care whether the TTs new or used, but I probably won't spent more than $1000. I not sure about spending a lot of money for a new cartridge to put on an old table. But, if that makes some sense, I guess I could be persuaded. The Dual 510 does not use an ultra low mass arm, but it is a semi automtic so there is no VTA adjustment - with the Shure, it tracks anywhere from 1.25 to 1.50. Thanks for the feedback so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 let me see if I remember this right, you buy these large plastic discs with compressed dynamics that cost as much as CDs and then they wear out as you play them!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Sorry about that Bill - I winced as we trashed your TT into the dirt. I am sure it plays way better than we have indicated - although semi-auto Dual arms dont have a great rep either. See if you can demo the Project I was refering to - with a semi decent cartridge. I dont know what phono stage you have - if it is MC capable a Denon 103 might be a good choice. If your phono is only MM the 110 and 160 Denons are also a good match (they are also MC carts - but higher output). The combo should be under $1000 I would guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted March 23, 2005 Author Share Posted March 23, 2005 And don't forget the expense of cleaners and brushes, etc, etc. Its the beauty of the ritual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 ---------------- On 3/23/2005 10:05:43 AM Colin wrote: let me see if I remember this right, you buy these large plastic discs with compressed dynamics that cost as much as CDs and then they wear out as you play them!!!! ---------------- Ummm, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Bill, At about $1K you will be in the ballpark of a used VPI Scout/JMW 9 arm combo, a very fine TT. Don't listen to those "audio snobs" . Your M-97 will work fine until you opt on a pre-amp and wether or not it can take a MC cartridge. Then, the world will be your oyster. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted March 23, 2005 Author Share Posted March 23, 2005 Mark - yes, $1000 total. There's no magic to that figure - its simply the cash I expect to have and probably won't have more for audio gear for a while. I'm still trying to get those xovers DeanG'd also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Questions of hierarchy are difficult because you can't do it all over again by changing the order of your upgrades to reassess it. Sometimes one's take on a difference reflects what order it was bought within. I'd see it as changing out components in order of how much they probably degrade the sound. While I'm not familiar with the Dual either, I'd guess that TT and arm are a lot further away from satisfactory than the Shure, and agree that intuitively that the TT and arm should be changed together. After that, IMHO one can get a better assessment of what cart makes good sense for the system. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 "While I'm not familiar with the Dual either, I'd guess that TT and arm are a lot further away from satisfactory than the Shure, and agree that intuitively that the TT and arm should be changed together. After that, IMHO one can get a better assessment of what cart makes good sense for the system. " That was beautifully put! It is what I wanted to say and yet failed. Not a hint of an insult yet gets the message across loud and clear. Nice one Larry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted March 23, 2005 Author Share Posted March 23, 2005 Max and Mark - don't worry about the TT remarks - I take it as "constructive criticism" and I really value your advice and comment (also, I'm not really that thin-skinned - unless you start talking trash about my MC2102!!). And Larry, your comment makes a great deal of sense. I think its pretty clear that the majority opinion here is to go for the upgrade TT. Lastly, I want to again say how much I appreciate this Board - my experience on some others lately has been far from enjoyable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 I had a Dual (can't remember the #) and was using a Grado Gold w/ Creek OBH8SE preamp. The sound was always rather sweet and rolled off at the top .. very pleasant, but not particularly dynamic or detailed. All records had the same general "sound." Then it occurred to me that probably all records do not, in fact, have the same general "sound" but that my turntable did. I replaced the Dual with a Basis 1400 and Graham 1.5 tonearm (very nice used deal). Sound is brighter, more detailed, more dynamic, and the general "sound" is gone. Records really don't all sound the same. I have a fairly large record collection and the investment is easily worthwhile. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 If I had the money to get a C40 I'd seel ya my C33. There is a Carver C1 sitting in my basement in mothballs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kittybuddy Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 I am curently using the 510 it is alright TT for the money but a friend of mine bought a Thorens 160 and put a Ortofon OM-30 super 2 on it , we hooked both of them up to his mc32 and mc2100 and the Thorens sounded much cleaner.For my money I would buy a used thorens 125 with a sme arm on it cost 500.00 and put a Om-30 cost 158.00 on it. I would use the rest of the money and send the mc 26 out and have it brought up to spec.Just my 2 cents Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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