smuttynose Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 This kind of question could be too broad but, I gotta start somewhere. I am going to buy a tube amp, probably an integrated for starters, but I am really longing to go all the way into it at some point with components; pre-amp/amp, pre- and mono blocks, who knows. For now I am shopping audiogon and ebay for a Scott or EICO or something along those lines. My budget for these is about $500. What I am looking for is some steers to other makes when I decide to leap over the ledge and get something like bottlehead, decware, ASL or Bez (btw, who manufactures Bez?). I am driving a set of Cornwalls and planning to obtain Horns for a larger listening room. Also, I am only interested in 2 channel, I have tried the surround effect and did not care for it, and I do not have a home theatre. Thanks for any assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 I think the Eico or Scott integrated amps are a good choice, particularly if you purchase one that's already had a good rebuild job. The stock on these vintage amps has gone up, so it can be pricey to buy one in need of restoration and then send it off for rebuilt. There are some candidates of current manufacture integrated amps, but there are other folks who can offer more on that than me. Oh, one other integrated amp I heard a few months ago was a Dynaco SCA 35. I hadn't heard alot about this amp, but I thought it was impressive and every bit as good as Scott or Eico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 In addition to what Dee has mentioned, I have read very positive things about new tube amp products from Prima Luna. However, the price is unfortunately about twice what you have mentioned. I read a very favorable review of one of them in a well-known audio publication, and found it helpful that they included a picture showing the inside wiring. As someone very interested in that sort of thing, I was extremely impressed by the workmanship of these amplifiers built in China. Many an occidental folk would charge more for the labor alone than the entire amplifiers costs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenc319 Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 hi, I have a EICO HF-81 and use it with Forte speakers in a 24x14x8 room. It is a great amp. Dual mono design with 2 rectifiers, all triode input stages and low negative feedback Williamson design output stage with EL-84 tubes. There is a rebuilt one up for sale on Audigon now http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1117634188 and everything the seller says about this amp is TRUE. It has a very sweet midrange and enough muscle to give tight bass. The volume levels I can reach in my room with it can shake the walls. Highly recommended. good luck Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Refurbished EICO and H.H. Scott integrateds are an excellent way to go (Craig of NOSValves can set you up with a vintage amp that'll make a believer outta you), but after buying the amp and having Craig restore it might be a bit over your projected budget IMO. Later on if you still want to go the seperates route, your own recommendations with Bottlehead, Decware, and Antique Sound Labs would be excellent, affordable choices as well (especially if you're a DIYer and can build their kits). I personally chose BEZ myself for their bargain priced tube amps (stereo, integrated, and monoblocks), preamps, and DACs. Edmund Lam (a.k.a.: Lam Ying Wing) of Hong Kong is the sole designer/builder of BEZ; his e-mail address is edmund_l39@hotmail.com; his eBay user ID is zagger1). I don't know what "BEZ" stands for, if it's a name or an acronym...regardless, his products are decent and build quality good. He could choose a faster method of shipping (surface shipping by sea via economy China Post to cut costs for his customers); other than the usual 2 months waiting time, his components are worth the wait IMO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 ---------------- On 4/24/2005 7:44:06 AM Erik Mandaville wrote: In addition to what Dee has mentioned, I have read very positive things about new tube amp products from Prima Luna. However, the price is unfortunately about twice what you have mentioned. I read a very favorable review of one of them in a well-known audio publication, and found it helpful that they included a picture showing the inside wiring. As someone very interested in that sort of thing, I was extremely impressed by the workmanship of these amplifiers built in China. Many an occidental folk would charge more for the labor alone than the entire amplifiers costs! ---------------- Reading Stereophile are we? Nothing more then a Cayin TA-30 with a higher price tag. Upscale Audio had it renamed and had the goofy bias circuit installed. Which from what I have found out is a step back from the Cayin TA-30 sonically speaking restricting the amp reach but it will suit the lazy man for sure. The Catic group that manufactures the Cayin and others has changed its distribution setup all dealers have to name there own gear and make mild changes to the circuit to call it there own to keep the price wars down and drive there retail prices upward. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 ---------------- On 4/24/2005 6:04:34 AM smuttynose wrote: This kind of question could be too broad but, I gotta start somewhere. I am going to buy a tube amp, probably an integrated for starters, but I am really longing to go all the way into it at some point with components; pre-amp/amp, pre- and mono blocks, who knows. For now I am shopping audiogon and ebay for a Scott or EICO or something along those lines. My budget for these is about $500. What I am looking for is some steers to other makes when I decide to leap over the ledge and get something like bottlehead, decware, ASL or Bez (btw, who manufactures Bez?). I am driving a set of Cornwalls and planning to obtain Horns for a larger listening room. Also, I am only interested in 2 channel, I have tried the surround effect and did not care for it, and I do not have a home theatre. Thanks for any assistance. ---------------- Give me a call if you can't find anything you like I can hook you up in your price range no problem. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 ---------------- On 4/24/2005 9:14:26 PM NOSValves wrote: The Catic group that manufactures the Cayin and others has changed its distribution setup all dealers have to name there own gear and make mild changes to the circuit to call it there own to keep the price wars down and drive there retail prices upward. ---------------- How many would I have to order in advance from Catic to call it The Parrot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenc319 Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 hi, NOS wrote " Reading Stereophile are we? Nothing more then a Cayin TA-30 with a higher price tag. Upscale Audio had it renamed and had the goofy bias circuit installed. Which from what I have found out is a step back from the Cayin TA-30 sonically speaking restricting the amp reach but it will suit the lazy man for sure. The Catic group that manufactures the Cayin and others has changed its distribution setup all dealers have to name there own gear and make mild changes to the circuit to call it there own to keep the price wars down and drive there retail prices upward." I thought the Cayin was a well regarded amp for its price and can be bought used for around $700 . Are rebuilt vintage amps in this price range a better deal ? Is it the Cayin TA-30 you don't care for or the new marketing tatics being used to sell them ? thanks, Larry thanks, Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 Smutty- I personally would look into buying a used Conrad Johnson. check out audiogon.com. I have found there amps to be great. Their service life is outstanding and their customer service will rival anyone! Good luck. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 ---------------- On 4/25/2005 11:59:22 AM laurenc319 wrote: hi, NOS wrote " Reading Stereophile are we? Nothing more then a Cayin TA-30 with a higher price tag. Upscale Audio had it renamed and had the goofy bias circuit installed. Which from what I have found out is a step back from the Cayin TA-30 sonically speaking restricting the amp reach but it will suit the lazy man for sure. The Catic group that manufactures the Cayin and others has changed its distribution setup all dealers have to name there own gear and make mild changes to the circuit to call it there own to keep the price wars down and drive there retail prices upward." I thought the Cayin was a well regarded amp for its price and can be bought used for around $700 . Are rebuilt vintage amps in this price range a better deal ? Is it the Cayin TA-30 you don't care for or the new marketing tatics being used to sell them ? thanks, Larry thanks, Larry ---------------- Read my post I didn't say a thing negative at all just listed the facts. I personally think the vintage rebuilt stuff walks all over the Cayin's or anything else for under $1500 out there new. I have had a few customers buy a Cayin TA-30 to compare to there vintage rebuilt Scott and guess what they don't own the Cayin no more but the Scott is still a resident of there collection. But to each is own. I have recommended many people pickup a Cayin back when they were a meager $499 and they had a new amp only preference for under a grand. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 Okay, so I shouldn't buy a Prima Luna to replace my monos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenc319 Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 hi , I like rebuilt old stuff also. The EICO hf-81 is a steal at the $ 475 I paid for it. The guy I bought it from sold it and kept his Scott btw. I was just wondering about the Cayins. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smuttynose Posted April 25, 2005 Author Share Posted April 25, 2005 Would a Scott integrated perform well with a set of mono blocks? I am starting to think about getting one of the vintage integrated amps and trying to use it as a pre for a pair of mono blocks, either bottleheads or the ASL. Will this work or is the architecture prohibitive to using and integrated amp as a pre? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 " Reading Stereophile are we? Well, Craig, since you seem to be aware of the source of the information, yeah, I guess WE are in fact reading Stereophile. Nevertheless, the wiring in the example shown was outstanding, and much better than a significant number of examples I've seen -- and I've seen enough to be able to pass a judgment in that regard. I have not seen or read one negative review of that amplifier -- regardless of what your opinion of it may be. In fact, a number of reviewers refer to the amp as their budget reference amplifier. I actually trust the opinions of this particular review, and have communicated with him on a number of occasions. I know that he is one who thinks of performance first -- regardless of price, and he thought extremely highly of this amp. We tend to stomp stuff pretty quickly here in recent days and weeks. Please tell me about your experience with this SPECIFIC amplifier, and what your impressions of it were in your system with the music to which you like to listen. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 Eric, I hate to tell you this but the absolute least important Item in the sound that most amplifiers will produce is the wiring layout and absolute neatness. Looking under the chassis will tell you absolutely nothing about its sound. I myself would prefer to have a amp neatly wired but I'll be darned if I would base my recommendation on it. Once again I never said the amp would sound bad, good or other wise. I just simply injested some facts. The ALMOST EXACT SAME amplifier can be bought for less under a different name. IMHO opinion the Cayin TA-30 is a better amp then the one being offered by Upscale Audio and for less money. Published reviews by the likes of Stereophile of a product sold by a major advertiser of the magazine IMHO should be taken with a grain of salt. In fact to me almost all reviews written by major publications are suspect to say the least since they seem to never give much in the way of negative or tread lightly over them like they don't matter. Oh and you may like to know I owned the same amp under the Cayin TA-30 name. SHOW ME WHERE I STOMPED ANYTHING ?????? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 Craig: "I hate to tell you this but the absolute least important Item in the sound that most amplifiers will produce is the wiring layout and absolute neatness." Don't worry about it, I can take it. However, I wasn't basing the reference so much on the wiring as I was on the sound, which is what I mentioned in my response. The review of the amplifier focused on it's performance, and that is the aspect of it to which I was referring -- and why I suggested the product. As far as wiring goes, I think I am probably as familiar with what works and what doesn't as you. But I don't agree that wire dress and craftsmanship is the least important factor in how well an amplifier performs. In fact, it can be an extremely crucial part. High impedance circuits can be very sensitive to a number of noise related problems, alghough I would agree that it's not necessary for every capacitor and resistor to be on axis with the sides of the chassis. What I have found unfortunate is the VERY QUICK negative responding regarding components with which the people making those responses have had zero experience. I found the tone of your response more negative than positive. I will maintain that the amplifier we are discussing has been very well received and liked, and the truly superb wiring is something, based on my own experience with building amplifiers, is both something I appreciate and I think significantly adds to the value of the product. Let me ask this: If someone commented on the wiring of a VRD amp, saying, perhaps, something like "The VRDs not only sounded incredible, but the neat wiring clearly illustrates that Craig knows what he is doing and has experience working with electronics." Do you not take that as a compliment? I've never heard you answer back with something as rude as "Yeah, well I'm glad the amps sound good, but what you're saying about my wiring couldn't be less important. The wiring is absolutely the least important part of what I do, so forget about it. It's meaningless!" I in fact have offered a compliment on that aspect of the VRDs, althought I've never heard them for myself. I'm sorry if that addressed something so insignificant, but I meant it as something positive and hopefully at least a little encouraging. There have been examples in the past of electronics work that we all thought was rather poor -- and we certainly went out of our way to make that point. I have never heard the amp, either Craig. However, I will say that based on everything I have read about its performance, and indeed combined with how well I think they are put together and wired, the chances of good results actually do exist. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 Smutty: Please accept an apology for all of this -- it's not helping you in any way. Erik PS: You could get a very decent Dynaco ST-70 for what you are wanting to spend. That might be something to consider, as well. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 Craig: "Oh and you may like to know I owned the same amp under the Cayin TA-30 name." I wouldn't like or dislike to know whether you owned the Cayin. If you say you owned an earlier but slightly different version, that's fine. I was curious if you heard this SPECIFIC amplifier. Sometimes designers make small changes that can effect the overall sound in important ways. I've done that myself, as I'm sure you have. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 Well I myself prefer to hear at least some redition of a amp myself first hand before saying a word yea or nea. But I'm sure with you it wouldn't make much difference since they all sound wonderful just like those little changes Heh Your arguement on wiring dressing and all that maybe true working on these little flea powered SE amps trying to lower the noise floor. But in reality with amplifiers that are not so susectible to noise issues (MOST) they are not a huge isssue. You need more varied experience then you have to start spouting off such wide assumption. I would also suggest you invest in some real test equiptment and quit using strictly your ears as a judge at least if your going to take this work seriously. Would you try to teach without a education? The only difference between the two amps is the bias circuit. These amps are kicked off a assembly line in Chinese factory. One day there making the ProLogue, the next the Cayin TA30, the next TAD for Bizzie Bee in Chicago there isn't some dude sitting at a bench tweaking them there just reasonble good quality constuction, Cheap transformer, Cheap coupling caps, Cheap resistors, Cheap tube sockets and so on. Hey but 4 to 5 years down the road I'll be rebuilding them left and right as all this cheap stuff starts giving up the ghost. They were a reasonble value last year but now there getting to be priced beyond there worth IMHO. I think its okay to share your opinion around here but to me its just nice if you garnish the opinion from actual experience not "He said or she said" reviews IMHO should be taking with a grain of salt I don't care who wrote them. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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