Tom Adams Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 <I should know better, but here goes > First of all, although I've not listen to a multitude of the best stuff out there, I have had my ears tickled by some nice speakers/equipment over the last 20 some odd years. And I must confess that I'm kinda in the can't hear a difference camp. Nonetheless.... It's been my observation over these 20+ years of reading & listening to this speaker wire debate (which, BTW, is second only to the great motorcycle oil debate ) that those who say they can hear the difference, don't ever claim to have done a double blind test. OTOH, those that claim there is no difference, base it on having been in a DBT. So what does that say? I dunno.... Personally, I want to believe there is a difference. But my participation in a DBT tells me that there is none. Ahhhh...the great juxtaposition. And not to stick up for Stereo Review, but personally, I'm thankful for them having helped me out. When I was a teen some 30+ years ago, there was no internet to go to for answers to neophyte dumass questions. Serious audio folks were all old farts about 35 or so (that's a joke) and didn't seem too friendly to a pimply-faced paperboy looking for "the truth". True audio stores were imposing and a paperboy's hard-earned money paled in comparison to the $1K price tag on that blue glow MacIntosh. So mags were my source and Stereo Review was the only one written for us dummies. It arrived at my house and didn't look down it's nose at me, nor did it's words try to make me feel inferior. If I wanted that, all I had to do was go to the audio store and ask my dumass questions to some 40 year old "audiophile". So, maybe they have become mainstream - or maybe my knowledge has progressed past their readers' level. Who knows. But I certainly can't bash them for maybe, just maybe, there's some 16 year old, pimply-faced paperboy out there looking for some answers and Stereo Review helps introduce him to our hobby. BTW, you know, I'm not certain, but I think I met TheEar(s) once in an audio store. Tom Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Prana-Bindu: I doubt that any of us dispute the fact that paying $5000 for two 8ft runs of space-age, Ron-Popeil-certified God-wire goes a long way to convincing people that they hear a difference. It goes just as far as double blind tests go to convincing someone that his/her perceptions are unfettered by bias or any other expectations. DBT's may add the bias that one's senses are free of error. My point about the vocabulary of them fancy-lad magazines is that the differences of which we speak are so subtle/obscure/minute that they tend to remain unnoticed until we look for them specifically. If you show me two aerial photos of a section of a stadium filled with Nebraska football fans (even in a double blind format) and you ask me if I notice any differences between the two photos (especially if the photos were taken very far away -- as if with a cheap clock radio), I'll only be able (at best) to notice if one photo includes a big "Notre Dame Sucks" banner and the other doesn't. Even if the photos were taken with the best camera out there (such as those fancy-lad Mark Levinson cameras with the neat round platic buttons), the differences identified would be relatively huge: the pejorative banner, that there are more people wearing red on the right upper corner in one of the photos, etc. If, instead, the question to the viewer is "Do you notice a difference in the number of white people between the two photos?", that difference, if any, will be identified. Without that question, most people wouldn't ever bring it up -- unless it was obvious. None of the differences I've ever noticed between wires would be obvious, to the uninitiated (I love that word). Double blind tests don't prove that there is no difference in the sound of cables; they only prove that the particular listener did or didn't identify any. To lack mathematic proof that different cables carry a signal differently with sonically relevant results and thereby conjecture that all cables produce equal sound is the same mistake one makes when one conjectures that cables do color the sound differently from that same lack. Otherwise, we can stay away from scientific vocabulary and start talkin' in terms of sense perception, and no amount of blinding our prejudices will make our own hearing uniform or free from all bias. After all, if you participate in the DBT already believing or suspecting that cables don't make a difference, how free from bias are you? It's very easy to ignore the minutiae that make this nightmarish hobby such a joy. If electrical signals are so simple to understand, what characteristics of the electrical signal going through the cables are relevant to the system's ability to reproduce music? Does it's smell matter? Does the amount of energy required to break the valence bonds matter? What about the color of the shielding? If we're not gonna use the vocabulary of electricity to answer these questions, we're just conjecturing. I suspect we don't yet have an exhaustive list of electrical phenomena that are relevant to the reproduction of music, but I'm sure NASA is on it. Prana please. It has been shown that there are measurable differences between cables. These differences though might for example be exhibited most notably as one approaches the megahertz range. This is well above the audible range. The point is can one(you) reliably tell when you are listening to one cable vs another. In a double blind test I feel certain that most of us will consistently be able to distinguish between a Khorn and a Bose 901 for example. We may not now the brand of speakers at the time but we would be able to identify brand A vs brand B. Can you make the same claims for cables in the same environment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 This thread is starting to get interesting. Let's see...who's gonna throw the next punch? We got Discorules going at it with Foresthump and P-B. DJK and JW exchanging a few barbs. TB taking on TTK and P-B. I can hardly wait for the next post! Just so I'm not padding my post count, I would like to say I'm somewhere in the middle of this debate. I've got some decent interconnects because I actually want to believe they make a difference, but don't have any proof to prove otherwise. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 Mike, thanks for calling the shots. I was losing count ... Just bought some Kimber PBJ interconnects because a buddy who I trust said they make a BIG difference, but they won't break your bank, esp. when a 5-channel rig means a boat-load of interconnects. I'll let you know how it all works out. The reviews from real people on the www.kimber.com site were pretty good. ------------------ Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF) ALK Belle Klipsch (Center) Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR) Klipsch KSW-12 sub Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls) Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's) Denon AVR-4800 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 Yes.Brilliant minds at work.We should be proud of ourselves. Keith ------------------ KSP-300 FL/R KSP-C6 CENTER SW8II C/SUB KSP-S6 SURR KSP300 SB SW12II SONY KP53XBR35 RP DENON 3801 DENON DVD3300 DVD-AUDIO SONY MDP455 LDP ACURUS 125X5 ACURUS 100X3 MONDIAL M.A.G.I.C. BOX PANAMAX MAX 1000 PANAMAX COAXMAX (2) AQ SLATE AQ COPPERHEAD AQ SIDEWINDER AQ VSD TRIBUTARIES S-VIDEO MONSTER INT.400MKIII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 I gotta agree with you Keith. There's some serious $hit going on out there and we're arguing about speaker wire. We should all just lighten up a bit and thank God that we have this board and it's many wonderful members to share ideas, opinions, laughs and sometimes, disagreements... God Bless America! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 What I like about this debate is that it really hits home with everyone involved. It seems that few people can just acknowledge ignorance and walk away hoping their equipment choice is adequate. O.K., let's get back into it, boys.... Discorules: The confirmation we seek from measurements is secondary to the thorough understanding of what characteristics of the electrical signal actually have any operative relevance to the stereo system's work in reproducing the music. Otherwise, how would we know which measurements are relevant? Let's see, if we compare a pair of 6' long cables to a 10' long pair, I suspect the length difference won't mean much to the character of the signal and the output received from them by the speakers or their input from the amp. So if the length of the cable is not all that relevant to the final result, what measurements are? I also don't agree that the only question is whether I can hear a difference between two cables. To recycle an example I've used before on these boards, if you swap out the derailleurs on my bike with lighter parts, I won't be able to tell that the bike is lighter when I ride. If you swap out many parts, you can lose as much as ten pounds off the bike; and I guarantee you I'll notice a ten-pound difference going up the tallest mountain in Nebraska. Any one part swapped out won't present a noticeable difference; add them up, and it's clear. Dig? This is another reason double-blind tests (even with whip cream and sprinkles) don't provide satisfying information. We need the math, people. Who can break off the math? As I keep saying, the first information we need is to know what qualities/quantities in the electrical signal are relevant to the stereo system? Then we can ask whether the choice of cable makes a difference as to these qualities/quantities. If you don't know (as I don't), you're relying on faith and conjecture in your uneducated decisions regarding cables. Not so blissful, is it? O.K. Fine! I'll try doing a double-blind test. Don't expect anyting soon, though: I'm off tomorrow for a week of flyfishing in Washington. Don't warn the fish.... Now I have to find someone with the patience to swap out cables. Geeeeeezzzz!! Just remember: even if I don't notice a difference, it doesn't mean there isn't one there making the ride a little easier. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted September 14, 2001 Author Share Posted September 14, 2001 Ray--No offense taken! You misunderstood. I consider myself very unsophisticated in the ways of todays audio and the listening test you suggested is over my head (realize you are talking to a guy that is in the process of casting mid-ranges horns out of concrete). But again, I appreciate your response. TomB-Great website, we share the same taste in basement decor especially in "loose driver" displays. You should seriously consider making, stealing or buying a pair of Jensen Imperials. If you are good with power tools I've got plans that I will send to you if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 Well Pranu, I believe the most critical issue as it pertains to speaker cables is it's resistance. Both because of the potential for dissipation and wasting the power from your amp going to the speaker but secondly and most importantly, the return electrical energy from your speaker to the amp. Most amps, particularly solid state amps will appear as a virtual ground to this return energy and dissipate it. This is important because if it isn't it will distort the audio signal coming from the amp. When a cable has significant resistance power is lost and noticeable distortion will occur at various parts in the audio spectrum. Therefore it is often recommended that 16 gauge or better gauged cables are used. Other electrical issues pertain to reactive components like capacitance and inductace within the cables. These can be an issue when using extraordinarily long lengths and the effects will typically be heard as frequency response abberations. For most setups however where lengths run no more than 15 to 20 feet, this an insignificant issue. For very long lengths there are simple tricks available using standard cables to overcome reactive issues. I believe these issues have been well understood for a long time by Hi-Fi manufacturers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 Is it best to totally minimize resistance? or does too little resistance have sonically detrimental effects? Is the gauge size the only method of reducing resistance, or do other factors such as design (braiding, solid, etc.), nature of shielding, or the type of conductor used affect the resistance of the cable? Is the 16 gauge solution the one that gets maximum reduction in resistance, or is it considered enough by convention (much like the 16-bit/44.1khz sampling rate was considered sufficient)? I think I read somewhere that the relationship between resistance, capacitance and inductance was one of interdependence. In other words, to have optimal ratings of one meant a compromise in one or both of the other. Is this the case? Is the relationship of the length of the cable to the capacitance and inductance problematic insofar as there is a length threshold after which those characteristics become a problem? or are they gradually related to the length and shorter lengths are by convention not a problem below a generally agreed upon maximum? Now we're getting somewhere, bruh's.... What about a cable's susceptibility to picking up radio frequency and electromagnetic interference? How do the various methods of preventing this compare to each other? Is a braided design more protected than one that uses thick insulation? What about other means to minimize this? Is it even a factor, or is there a big margin of error within the limits of human hearing to detect the anomalies created in the playback by RFI and EMI? Does the kind of termination make a difference? Is the signal affected by a soldered terminal differently than by a crimped terminal? Does electricity even care? Yeah, what about how electricity feels about all this? Electricity is people too.... Is the impedance of cable a factor? I know: you're all gonna tell me to take classes in engineering. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Prana-Bindu: Is it best to totally minimize resistance? or does too little resistance have sonically detrimental effects? Is the gauge size the only method of reducing resistance, or do other factors such as design (braiding, solid, etc.), nature of shielding, or the type of conductor used affect the resistance of the cable? Is the 16 gauge solution the one that gets maximum reduction in resistance, or is it considered enough by convention (much like the 16-bit/44.1khz sampling rate was considered sufficient) I'm no expert but I'll do the best I can. Ideally you would want O ohms or no impedance in the cable but in the real world there is always even a slight amount. Ideally, the lower the better. This is not to say that at some low impedance level you will hear any difference with further lowering. The gauge method is an indicator of the size of the cable and is a direct indicator of the cable resistance. More acurately, in the real world impedance is the proper term since it includes inductance, capacitance and resistance which are all there. The resistive component in the audio band is the over riding factor so the reactive (capacitance and reactance) components are generally ignored when cable lengths are relatively small. Solid cable has somewhat lower resistance for a given gauge though it's big drawback is it's difficulty of use. Sixteen gauge is typically used due to cost performance relationship. Nothing magical about it. If you can afford 12 gauge or better, get it. Generally though one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between 16 and 12 gauge at short lengths like 15 feet or less. As for braiding, I have read and heard various things that I can't verify or know enough about to say. I think I read somewhere that the relationship between resistance, capacitance and inductance was one of interdependence. In other words, to have optimal ratings of one meant a compromise in one or both of the other. Is this the case? Not necessarilly. I explained a most of this above. Is the relationship of the length of the cable to the capacitance and inductance problematic insofar as there is a length threshold after which those characteristics become a problem? or are they gradually related to the length and shorter lengths are by convention not a problem below a generally agreed upon maximum? I haven't heard about generally agreed upon lengths. I will say that very long parallel cables have added capacitance, series inductance and increased resistance. These effects can be easily measured. Ultimately however, listening will determing if cable replacement is necessary. Now we're getting somewhere, bruh's.... What about a cable's susceptibility to picking up radio frequency and electromagnetic interference? How do the various methods of preventing this compare to each other? Is a braided design more protected than one that uses thick insulation? What about other means to minimize this? Is it even a factor, or is there a big margin of error within the limits of human hearing to detect the anomalies created in the playback by RFI and EMI? I suppose it can't hurt to protect against EMI and RFI by either method if properly applied. My own experience though is this is a overstated concern. I've had some 26 gauge cheapies that came with some cheap stereos and I do not remember any problems with that, at least not from the speaker wires. When I got EMI or RFI it was from the front end of my electronics. Does the kind of termination make a difference? Is the signal affected by a soldered terminal differently than by a crimped terminal? Does electricity even care? Yeah, what about how electricity feels about all this? Electricity is people too.... This is another silly part of this cable hype. The termination is only important in so much as connectivity. Nothing mystical happens whether it's spade, banana or bare wire. Oh yeah, the electons are really hurt that you didn't dress 'em in a nice spade connector. Is the impedance of cable a factor? See above. I know: you're all gonna tell me to take classes in engineering. No. Just look at what PWK uses. Save that tuition money for retirement. Textc>Text Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 John Warren---Thanks but I have plans for both types of Imperial cabinets. I just had a pair of new Altec 825 (A7-A5) cabinets built by one of my apprentices, when I work them into the rig I think I'll call it quits for awhile, I'm getting burned-out fooling with the stuff :-) Besides, I really want to get an old Fender Dual Showman or big Kustom rolled and pleated amp for my bass, my Ampeg works fine but the Showman or a Kustom is great "furniture". I'm also on the lookout for another drumset, an old Rogers kit would be cool. Glad you like the site, I really need to update it, I've many new horn links ready and new photos of mine and other guy's rigs. But I'm working 7-10s building a new powerplant and lack the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eglinski Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 Im new to klipsch forum, Ive owned lascalas hereseys,cornwalls and have K-horns for 16 years.In1985 I switched from lampcord to Monster (original) back then that was the "best" and the new K-horns I bought were internally wired with Monster Now ive been upgrading (ss to tubes) Im told by many so called high end experts that I should expect a vast improvment in sound if Ibuy new high end wires AQest DH labs Cardas Mit KImber ect. ect. I have been tempted to spend $150 to $250 on speaker wire??? Maybe I should just put that money towards an ALK "A" crossover network upgrade it is a sure-thing upgrade, isin`t it? BTW its so great to read opinions and info from people who own and really love Klipsch Its like a new world Ive discovered most people I know dont share my hobby Audio thanks Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 Ed, Welcome to the Klipsch Forum. This place is a great resource for this wonderful hobby of ours. I think you will find there are some very knowledgable people here who share the same passion as you. I don't have the big horns but there are many here who do. Don't be afraid to ask some questions...you will always get an answer... Mike ------------------ Family Room ----------- Hitachi 43UWX10B HDTV (16:9) Denon AVR-4800 Panasonic DVD-RP91K (Progressive Scan & DVD-Audio) Dual CS-5000 Turntable w/Shure V15V-MR DBX 3bx Series III Range Expander Klipsch Chorus (mains) Klipsch KLF-C7 (center) Klipsch Epic CF-2's (rears) Klipsch RS-3's (rear surrounds) SVS 20-39CS Sub w/Samson S700 Amp Monster HTS-3500 Line Conditioner Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 Digital Cable box Monster M-500 Component Video cables Monster Datalink 100 Digital Coaxial cables Radio Shack Gold Series for all other audio interconnects Bedroom ------- Mitsubishi 31" TV Yamaha M-4 Amp Yamaha C-4 Preamp Yamaha T-7 Tuner Teac DVD Player Dual CS-721 Turntable w/B&O MMC2 Looking for a pair of Heresy's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 hey mike l. ! your post about 'this thread getting interesting' made me laugh w/relief... as i posted earlier...well-you know-i wont "QUOTE" myself. btw-mounting the ksps-6's tomorrow, like what i've heard so far! i'll let y'all know. avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds sony strda-777ES receiver sony playstation 2 dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 35"tv panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire a 'teens' sub coming! KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.