Monster Cable

[John Warren]

"...So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring and listening to speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster cable are indistinguishable from each other with music and seem to be superior to the 24 gauge wire commonly sold or given away as 'speaker cable.' Remember, however, that it was a measurable characteristic--higher resistance per foot--that made 24 gauge sound different from the other cables. If the cable runs were only 6 instead of 30 feet, the overall cable resistances would have been lower and our tests would probably have found no audible differences between the three cables. This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires"

Stereo Review August 1983

[John Warren]

"I credit the success of the speaker wire industry to their expert sales and marketing ability. However, it is my experience that ordinary copper wire, as long as it's heavy enough, is just as good as name brands."

Roger Russell

Former Dir. of Acoustic Engineering at McIntosh Labs

[avman]

been in the game for a while...my 2 cents-there is some degree of benefit to BETTER cables, speaker wire, etc.etc. BUT these benefits reach a point of diminishing returns. sure! go get some better quality wire than the stuff that comes in the box-i.e.:speaker wire that's twisted against itself will shield it from outside interference better than poorly insulated thin speaker wire.interconnects that have gold plated ends won't corrode, and should do a better job of passing what is a very low voltage signal,etc.etc..as proud klipsch owners,our babies are some of the most revealing speakers on the planet. besides, aftermarket interconnects/speaker wires look really cool, AND IF THEY GIVE THE PERCEPTION OF BETTER PERFORMANCE-WHAT THE HECK! i just would try to prioritise your upgrades, and save the $500/ft. stuff for last-or never-the kids may want go to college! avman.

------------------

1-pair klf 30's

c-7 center

sony strda-777ES receiver

NEW! sony playstation 2!

dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder

pioneer dvd player

sharp 35"tv

panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner

monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire

surrounds and a 'teens sub coming!

KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz!

This message has been edited by avman on 09-02-2001 at 04:44 PM

[John Warren]

Stereo Reviews' statement on amplifiers-

"It came as no surprise that all the amplifiers in this group were capable of delivering excellent performance in almost any home music system. And provided we kept all of them running within their power limits, we heard nothing that would incline us to prefer one over another. Although some people strongly feel otherwise, good amplifiers of comparable quality and power that are not being overdriven will sound very much alike under most conditions to most people. If amplifiers do sound much alike (and these did), then why bother comparing them? Because there is more to an audio component than it's perceived sound character. There are differences in operational limits (maximum power output into various loads, for example), construction quality and finish, size, weight, price and features that can affect an amplifier's suitability for any particular installation."

High Power Amplifiers

Julian Hirsch

Stereo Review November 1992

[Mr. Blorry]

Amen, John.

I just wish I would have thought of it first. Monster Cable saw a niche and went for it. A bit of clever marketing, and they're selling their products at 1000 per cent markup! Not only that, but they can't keep them on the shelves! Kinda like the current SUV craze too. PT Barnum was right...

[Klipschguy]

Wow John,

Brave post. Well designed double blind tests do a good job of separating fact from fiction.

KG

This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 09-03-2001 at 08:00 AM

[T2K]

"Yeah,right!"

Keith

Knows better

Sept.2001

[John Warren]

Do you think Paul W. Klipsch would stand behind this statement?

"...The Z-Series Monster Cable® comes in three frequency specific designs for enhanced definition and detail. Klipsch is the first and only manufacturer to have made a performance commitment to use Monster Cable in a complete line of products."

RF-7 Product Information

Klipsch LLC

This message has been edited by John Warren on 09-03-2001 at 06:38 AM

[fini]

I have been following John's posts for some time, and have been impressed with his diverse knowledge, not unlike my own. So I checked out his profile, and by gosh, we have the same interests (only around these parts we like to call them landfills). Keep up the good work, JW!

fini

[Colin]

It is no surprise to me that mediocre systems all sound .. well, mediocre. But the key words in Hirsch's quote are " running within their power limits". And that, my friends says it all, because amps are often pushed outside of their power limits.

My 22 watt SS reference amp can deliver over 60 watts (almost three times its rated output) of peak power (at 5% THD). Yet, it is possible that even super-efficient 95/dB/w/m speakers, like the big old horns we love, require micro-second pulses of far more power than that to reproduce the possible CD peaks in a living room. The first harmonic of a micro-second note measured at a listening spot about 10' away may require a fast flash of about 2,048 watts! What amp can do that into a nominal 8 ohm load?

Therefore, it is the "differences in operational limits that can affect an amplifier's suitability". It is the way in which amplifiers CAN'T perform, that defines how well they sound with certain speakers.

------------------

big old horns, tube amps, tube pre-amp, British CD player, two subs, double wire, pipe insulation, paving stones, rubber mats & curtains

[Lag]

I almost hate to get involved in this discussion... Anyways, the fact of the matter is, every element in an audio system makes a difference in one for or another - all the way from your source material to your speaker, and even your room (especially your room).

However, it is also fact that some things more of a difference than others. Speakers tend to make the largest difference in overall sound - they also tend to have the highest distortion levels so that's no surprise. Your room will make almost as big a difference as the speakers do - just try moving your speakers all over your room and see what a huge difference it makes (for instance, try putting your speakers about four or five foot from the side walls, in the center of the room, and listen from right up against the rear wall, then move your speakers to the front wall and listen in the center of the room, then try the speakers in the corner of the room). Though it might seem absurd, there's something to be said for some of those acoustic treatments, though with the more expensive ones you're paying for a name and aesthetics.

With the speakers are room out of the equation, generally the third largest difference in overall sound is your electronics. I would tend to say that amps and preamps make a bigger difference in most cases than the source, but that's overgeneralizing a bit. Consider that the distortion characteristics in most amps is about 100 times less (or more) than the speakers in use - amps can and do sound different, but not -too- much (and the only way to find out for sure is to bring 'em home and just sub 'em into your system one at a time - trying 'em in the store isn't going to tell you a thing because the speakers are probably different, and the room certainly is).

Power probably makes the fourth largest difference (though in particularly bad situations where you've got ground loops or AC on your ground line then it can make a big difference). Providing clean power, using ground cheaters where need be, etc... Those all can improve overall sound quality. When there are no major problems it doesn't make much of a difference, but solving outstanding power issues can really make a bigger difference than changing out, say, an amplifier, or a preamp.

After power you start to get into the smaller things, like cables. Fact of the matter is - cables do make a difference. Fact of the matter is - if you use cable of sufficiently low resistence then it doesn't make much of a difference.

When I upgraded from bulk 12 ga cable to bi-wiring with the bulk cable on the lows and the Monster cable on the highs, I noticed a slight increase in clarity along w/ a little more bottom end oomph (in between I'd also tried w/ just the Monster Z series cable by itself, not biwiring, and I actually preferred the bulk 12 ga alone over the Monster cable alone - but the best was using both together).

The next change I made was to introduce some cable of my own making. I used 6 runs of CAT 5 braided together for the lows (the CAT 5 I was using was 8 x 24 ga solid copper with teflon insulation, so a total of 48 x 24 ga for the lows) and 2 runs for the highs (so 12 x 24 ga). I also shielded the cable and grounded the shield. Overall, that seemed to produce a richer sound than the Monster/12 ga combination. Strangely enough, the shielding seemed to be the biggest contributor to that - there was a noticable difference between when I connected the shield to ground, and when I left it unconnected.

Unfortunately, the home-made cable was a real pain in the butt to make so I never ended up finishing the pair (I just had one completed cable). I wasn't about to leave the system w/ two different speaker cables so I gave the CAT5 cable to a friend for him to finish for himself, and then I picked up some Kimber Kable. I used Kimber 8TC on the lows on Kimber 4TC on the highs. That seemed to give me roughly the same performance, and that's what I've stuck with since.

As far as interconnects go, on the analog side of things I use all AudioQuest (Coral on the front channel, while the other channels vary a bit based on what money was available). I've noticed some differences between AudioQuest and the cheap stuff that comes with most electronics, and I've noticed a bit of a difference between low quality AudioQuest and the higher end AudioQuest. Still, it's not a large difference.

On the digital side of the house, maybe with regular coax it's worth buying atleast a real brand like AQ, but don't figure it's going to do much. With a digital signal the signal either gets there intact or it doesn't - many ppl debate whether or not jitter is an audible source of distortion. Consider this - on CAT 5e cable in a high speed computer network (1 Gbps), for about 20 cents a foot, you can carry enough digital information for 300 to 400 channels of raw 24 bit 96 kHz audio (and the fact is - digital information is digital information - just because it is carrying audio doesn't make it special or distinguishable from any other digital information in terms of EMI/RFI characteristics). The situation with fiber is even more ridiculous. I'll admit the Toslink connectors are crappy compared to what's used in computer networks, but the fiber isn't that much worse, and fiber can carry even more data than copper. Plus, fiber is 100% totally immune to EMI/RFI. It makes sense to buy a decent brand of coax just for getting the EMI/RFI shielding, but spending a ton on fiber is just wasting money - I've got about $25K sunk into my home theater (MSRP - I didn't actually pay that much) and I'm running it with a $30 fiber cable (was the cheapest the store had on hand).

Everything else beyond cable takes things into the realm of the absurd - magnetic treatments for your CDs (DUH! - CD's work on optics and the magnetic charge held on the CD is not enough to create inductance in the wires going to the optical pick-up or laser), little wooden blocks to hold your cables off the ground (microphonics is a real phenomenon, but not measurable by the human ear), power cords that run $100's of dollars (let's see ppl - do you think the hundreds of feet of electrical wiring in your house is of that quality? the only way that expensive of a power cord makes any sense is if you have a power conditioner that breaks the AC down to DC and then reconstructs the AC again cleanly using a sine wave source, and it's still immeasurable), etc...

-Mike

------------------

Electronics

-----------

Display: NEC LT150 Projector

Screen: Da-Lite Model-B 67"x50" Screen (Matte White)

DVD Player: Pioneer Elite DV-05

Decoder: Lexicon DC-2 DD/DTS/THX

Equalization: AudioControl C-101 Series III (front)

Amplifiers: Rotel RB-991 - 200W x 2 (front)

Amplifiers: Rotel RB-993 - 200W x 3 (center/sides)

Amplifiers: Adcom GFA 5500 - 200W x 2 (rear)

Power Conditioner: Monster HTS 3500 Power Center

Speakers

--------

Front: (2x) Klipsch KLF-30 (black satin finish)

Center: Klipsch KLF-C7 (black satin finish)

Side: (2x) Klipsch RB-5 (medium oak)

Rear: (2x) Klipsch RB-5 (medium oak)

Sub: Velodyne HGS-15 (black gloss)

Interconnects

-------------

DVD to DC-2: Generic Toslink

DC-2 to EQ: AudioQuest Coral

EQ to RB-991: AudioQuest Coral

DC-2 to RB-993: AudioQuest Topaz (sides)

DC-2 to RB-993: AudioQuest Diamondback (center)

DC-2 to GFA-5500: AudioQuest Turquoise (19m of it)

DC-2 to Sub: AudioQuest Diamondback

Speaker Cables

--------------

Front: Kimber Kable 4TC (hi) / Kimber Kable 8TC (lo)

Center: Monster Cable Z3

Side: AudioQuest Type 4+

Rear: AudioQuest Slate (single bi-wire)

[TheEAR]

Ok you asked for it you will hear from TheEAR(s).

First lets clear some things up and NOW.Stereo Review

is a jokers stereo mag,not even worthy of being used as TP.I wasted several dollars to buy one time this TP with "reviews" inside.Guess what GUESS WHAT All I saw is reviews of Bose speakers,Cambridge speakers and cheap garbage Sony and Onkyo low end recievers.Plus a clown answers all of the ignorants questions section!

The most insulting part was a Stereo Review where they "reviewed" the Definitive Tech BP3000 speaker and proclaimed them as the best.HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

They probably dont know about the Dynaudio Contour 3.3's,the B&W Nautilus 801's,the Egglestonworks Andra and many speakers like the Klipsch RF7's.What a bunch of clowns!

Let me tell you I did compare power amps(I have 9 power amps from $1500 to $13000,all US dollars)and they do NOT sound the same.Even the Celeste 4070 when compared to a 4250 does not sound the same.And at the same volume!Stereo Review should be renamed Cheapo Review.Stereo Review tries to convince the poor suckers who got cheap recievers they can get Krell like power and detail on mid-fi gear.HA HA HA HA

LOL cubed

And they even go to discredit themselves as far as to compare lamp cord with good quality speaker wire and end up with a "conclusion" LAMP CORD IS ALL YOU NEED!

Sure it is for all owners of mid-fi.NOT FOR ANY SERIOUS AUDIOPHILE LIKE ME.I have the Monster Sigma and M2.4S Biwire these are not your grocery store Monster cables.LOL And I can hear a slight improvement when I listen to very well recorded CD's I know.I name Reference Recordings,Chesky,AudioQuest and some SACD Sony CD's.I use a Sony SCD-1 player not their Dollar store Seame Street player.

And one of their reviewers is like 99 years old and has two defective hearing aids!LOL He is a serious reviewer,sure he has experience,his hearing aids are not Krell,and clour the sound.How can he give an accurate description of sound?LOL take a guess

And I did listen to those Definitive BP3000 tower speakers,the bass is huge(slow,undefined)the midrange is ok and the highs are agressive and lack the finer detail.My Dynaudio Contour 3.3's are so superior(defined,tight bass,uncolored midrange and highs so detailed most could think they listen to electrostatics!).The Def Techs are overyped.Period

The Klipsch RF-5 sound better and cost way less,the RF-7 with a RSW15 sub will probably kill the Def.Tech 3000 in a A/B test.And still cost less! HA

A good sub for Stereo Review is one that gives the most SPL,they dont even notice most subs are boomy,slow and lack definition.Ha I am amused to see a TP review survive so long.

Now Stereophile is a real mag with real audio gear,one thing they lack is Klipsch reviews.The RF-5 and 7 should fit quite well in there.

The only Stereo Review I have is used under my lamp,this way it serves a real role! HA HA HA

I hope they go out of business,Stereo Review stands for

Mid-Fi.Nothing more and sometimes much less.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[WMcD]

Gee Colin, it seems like you've done some calculations. I've not quite done the same detail, but I can see your point.

If at 1 meter 1 watt is 95 dB

10 watts is 105 dB.

100 watts is 115 dB.

1000 watts is 125 dB.

2000 watts is 128 dB.

That has be knocked down a bit for 3 meters. But that is free space, and might be ignored in a room.

But gee, those figures are awfully loud.

My recall is that dynamic peaks are 18 dB over program average.

Program average of 90 dB is very loud. Therefore 100 watts comes close to keeping within peaks at 115 dB. You need 200 watts to make it 118 dB.

Where does the second harmonic figure come from. I'd like to know, out of curiosity.

Of course, the Heritage line has almost a 10 dB advantage at 104 dB sensitivity. So at 10 watts in, they are putting out 114 dB. Push it to 117 dB at 20 watts. So, figuring backwards, program average could be 89 dB when pushing the amp to cover peaks.

Err. Makes some sense.

I think the overall question is whether amps are indeed being pushed to the limit. Maybe, depending on the amp and what you can tolerate.

None the less, I question whether they are in most situations. These peaks at over 100 dB are, I think, more than what we tolerate in our living rooms.

Gil

[Marvel]

Lag,

The idea of fiber handling higher data rates than Cat5e is not warranted. Multimode fiber can only handle 1 gigabit. Single mode probably goes higher, but most folks only deal with multimode. That is the cable most network cards use. One cable for transmit and another for receive, and they come paired together. But you are correct in that the short lengths used in a home wouldn't require exceptional cable.

My ADAT can transfer eight 20 bit tracks at one time over the little fiber cable that came with it. NO degradation noticed.

Marvel

[Colin]

Output of 110 dB is indeed painfully loud. My normal listening level for movies and music is 9:00 on the pre-amp dial, so a 1 kHz tone at the back of my couch measures a steady 73 dB. I estimate that my antediluvian 2A3 amps idle the big old horns at about 0.0078 watts.

Musical peaks of 15 dB above that normal level will require approximately one quarter of a watt - well within the capabilities of the Bottlehead Paramours (with a name like Bottlehead, you know the amps are not expensive).

Dynaco says their pre-amp dial actually approximates the amount of juice flowing from the amps. At 12:00 on the dial, the amps are pushing out about 1 /34 watts to create a 91 dB tone. A 15 dB musical peak from that level requires about 16 watts. So the amps are definitely clipping on musical peaks - you can hear it in their sound. What was once sweet, is now sour.

Although calculations indicate that 3.5 watt bottles should not push out more than 100 dB, in fact they measure an ear splitting 110 dB when cranked all the way up to 5:00 on the dial.

------------------

horns, tubes, subs, leather couch & female vocalists

[djk]

I love feeding the trolls.Flush, here it comes:

Roger Russell

Author, Artist, Engineer, Inventor, Photographer, Collector, and formerly

Director of Acoustic Research

at McIntosh Laboratory, Inc.

and the originator of

McIntosh Loudspeakers

Russel designed the C26 preamp.He should have quit while he was ahead.His speakers all sounded horrible. All the Mac gear from his era sounded bad.I can make the later vintage ss Mac amps sound great.No luck yet with the earlier ones.He got lucky with the C26.It sounds good.Easy to see why he thinks all wire sounds the same.Stereo Review.All amps sound the same.All CD players sound the same.All women kiss the same.All food tastes the same.People would always run this old flag up the pole and expect me to salute.I had a demo for them.They had to put their fingers in their ears and listen to two different CD players.If they couldn't tell the difference with their ears plugged I asked them to leave.The difference in 'slam' between a Denon and an NAD was so big you could tell even if you were deaf.I started using Teflon wire 25 years ago.You are welcome to use whatever you want.

[John Warren]

"all CDs sound the same"...who said anything about that? They don't, any self-respecting Troll knows that.

Amps-they sound different but I'll take a clunker amp driving a good set of speakers ANY day of the week rather than the "lab standard" hooked to some "cone and dome" shoebox.

[T2K]

djk, enjoyed the post.Thanks,

Keith

------------------

KSP-300 FL/R

KSP-C6 CENTER

SW8II C/SUB

KSP-S6 SURR

KSP300 SB

SW12II

SONY KP53XBR35 RP

DENON 3801

DENON DVD3300 DVD-AUDIO

SONY MDP455 LDP

ACURUS 125X5

ACURUS 100X3

MONDIAL M.A.G.I.C. BOX

PANAMAX MAX 1000

PANAMAX COAXMAX (2)

AQ SLATE

AQ COPPERHEAD

AQ SIDEWINDER

AQ VSD

TRIBUTARIES S-VIDEO

MONSTER INT.400MKIII

[Ray Garrison]

John,

I agree that poor speakers will sound bad whatever you drive them with. However, if you have a friendly dealer who's open to experimenting or a couple of friends with the necessary bits and pieces, you might find this interesting...

Try driving a really, really good set of speakers with a good, but not great, amp (say Creek, NAD, one of the better Sony or Denon receivers, smaller Rotel units, etc.), then try driving a good, but not great speaker (one of the less expensive Klipsh reference line, or the B&W CM series, smaller Paradigm, etc.) with the best amp you can procure. I found (using a dealer who's a friend of mine) that the B&W DM602 S2 driven by an Audio Research REF2 preamp and VT100 MK II amp sounded BETTER (midrange, high end extension, soundstaging and articulation) than the Nautilus 802 driven by an Adcom GFP750 pre and GFA5802 amp. Swap the front ends around (putting the Adcom on the DM and the AR on the Nautilus) and the Nautilus/AR combo was so far superior to the DM/Adcom that it (almost) seemed to justify the $$$ difference on a linear price / performance ratio...

Ray

------------------

Music is art

Audio is engineering

[decibel man]

Ray, this is not the kind of information we need to be armed with. It is already festering in my head. Do I need better power? Do I need monoblocks or multi-channel amps? Should I go with the home equity loan or use both gold cards? Visions of three VT100 MK II's on my rack and only half of the rest of my stuff in the house because the wife left. Just kidding, but thanks for the extra insight. That is pretty interesting.

JT