JJ51 Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 ---------------- On 7/16/2005 12:05:23 AM DrWho wrote: Have you looked into the curved masonite panels for diffusion? They're really cheap to build and work rather well. Here is the excerpt from the Dope from Hope: ---------------- A little bit. I was concerned about how well they would work and the WAF, but I will have a closer look. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 My bad about the NRC...to me it's conceptually almost the same as Sound Absorbtion coefficient, but I should be using the correct terminology. (that way I don't look like an idiot again in the future) btw, I had no clue Ethan was behind the realtraps stuff either, which I feel adds a lot more credibility to the products. Perhaps I was a bit too quick to judge when products were being described with terms like "fullness of instruments" and all that (considering it's the same terminology all the expensive no change tweaks use...ie, speaker wire or putting rocks on top of your speaker). I've come to the conclusion that there's really no such thing as an "ideal" with anything with audio related so just use whatever you want as long as you've got good reasoning behind it and understand what your goals are. Of course the more experienced you become, the better your reasoning and understanding gets, but it really takes personal experience and even trial-and-error to really grasp the concepts. I think it'd be cool if some of these companies designed modelling software where you enter in room dimensions, put in your furniture, and even pick speaker locations and nominal dispersion patterns to get an idea of how different treatments would affect the overall sound...Maybe I'll do something like this for a thesis later on down the road I already know about EASE and all them fancy tools, but I'm thinking something simpler aimed for the general consumer (ie, drag and drop couches and panels and whatever). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 ---------------- On 7/16/2005 1:04:27 PM DrWho wrote: My bad about the NRC...to me it's conceptually almost the same as Sound Absorbtion coefficient, but I should be using the correct terminology. (that way I don't look like an idiot again in the future) ---------------- No prob. It's an important distinction, however, and it's one of the reasons why RealTraps, to me, has much better immediate credibility than the turkeys over at Auralex, who don't even state SA-coefficient or actual frequency range, but rather just an NRC figure, which, as we've established, means fork-all in a bass trap. I love the idea of modeling software for this application. Heck, as an installer, I'd love to be able to plug in some numbers and play around with room objects on a computer, rather than going through the mind-numbing tedium of RTA'ing from a dozen different positions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 As most of you know, treating a room properly can be a complicated issue. There is a rather nice piece of software that I have that allows you to model any room, not just rectangular ones, choose the materials in the room etc. The one drawback is that of the speakers available to use with the programs, Khorns or any Heritage speakers are not modeled....could be a fun project for you computer literate speaker builders. Here is the link http://www.cara.de/ENU/index.html Also, for those that really want to delve into room treatments, I consider F. Alton Everest's book "The Master Handbook of Acoustics" is a must read and reference. I his book, he discusses absorbers of different types, diffusers, bass traps, etc. I made some high and upper mid freq absorbers with rigid fiberglass and they worked extremely well. Unfortunately I had to leave those when I sold my last house. I should have my new HT built by the end of the month and will start looking at treating that room. Although, in a 26x20 room the problems should be a little more manageable than the last smaller room I had. I have made some tube traps for my HT and have had success with those. I have also ordered some eggcrate panels from foam by mail and they have a nice product. I ended up not using the eggcrate foam because it didn't pass the WAF. I am looking at their new line of foams, for high freq treatment now that they have the pyramid shaped foam. I have been trying to find some good diffusers as well, reasonably priced of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Ok, after reading up on the Lenrd lab tests, I see they too are made from 1.7lb/ft3 foam, making them very similar the foambymail product. So I emailed foambymail with some basic but tough questions including the similarity between their product Auralex Lenrd Bass traps, if they have any NRC ratings below 125Hz, and if the tests were done by an independent lab. I also asked about colours and shipping... and they replied the following... ---------------- "They are similar. The NRC ratings were not done by an indepent lab, but we are getting a lot of requests to do so, so we will have that within the next few months. Sorry, we don't have any measurements lower than 125Hz at the moment. The specials only come in charcoal. The regulars are available in any color..." ---------------- As far as I can see, they can perform similarly and are relatively inexpensive at the "sale" prices... With fit and finish being their largest draw back, sounds like a interesting alternative... ---------------- On 7/16/2005 7:34:11 PM Rudy81 wrote: As most of you know, treating a room properly can be a complicated issue. There is a rather nice piece of software that I have that allows you to model any room, not just rectangular ones, choose the materials in the room etc. The one drawback is that of the speakers available to use with the programs, Khorns or any Heritage speakers are not modeled....could be a fun project for you computer literate speaker builders. Here is the link http://www.cara.de/ENU/index.html ---------------- Actually CARA was the first one that came to my mind as well. How did it perform for you? Unfortunately to accurately model the room requires quite a bit of data (including the speakers TRUE polar response patterns) in order to attain precise results. Unfortunately companies are reluctant to release that type of info and a lot of the data available was produced by marketing staffs. I'd be curious on trying/comparing it... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Formica - apparently you missed my earlier post, where I explained that the NRC rating of a product is merely the average of its reduction between 250Hz and 2Khz. You'll never get an NRC rating below 125Hz, because that's not what an NRC rating is for. Ask them for a broadband Sound Absorption Coefficient breakdown. If they don't have it, I wouldn't buy the product. Of course, I wouldn't buy Auralex's products anyhow, for the same reason... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 I hear Behringer is coming out with a line of acoustic treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 ---------------- On 7/18/2005 7:38:55 AM Griffinator wrote: Ask them for a broadband Sound Absorption Coefficient breakdown. ---------------- I think they understood I was simply referring to frequency specific noise reduction coefficients (SAC, and not necessarily the NRC average defined by the ASTM test) as even their own data extends down to 125Hz. We already have thier SAC data down to 125Hz, and I also think their reply clearly indicates that they haven't measured their products performance below the 125Hz mark. (BTW, Auralex's product's performance drops like a stone below this and I'd expect theirs to perform similarly). ---------------- I wouldn't buy Auralex's products anyhow, for the same reason... ---------------- Apart from knowing Ethan personnaly, I don't see why? Each product has it's use, as long as you know why you are using it... Frequency specific data gives a better idea of a products performance is than what a single ASTM NRC can indicate. We should not forget what the objective of the data really is. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 ---------------- On 7/18/2005 1:07:41 PM DeanG wrote: I hear Behringer is coming out with a line of acoustic treatment. ---------------- LMAO! Let me know how it works out for ya, Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 anyone buy a set of these yet? I'm particularly interested in the Lernd (sp?) styled ones. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 ---------------- On 7/15/2005 5:39:20 PM JJ51 wrote: I agree that a professional with the right measuring equipment will give great results in treating the room. Unfortunately in my case, this was way out of my price range. So, I studied acoustics for three months, and took my best shot at treating the room. In my case, I have a living room with wood paneling on three walls and bricks all along the back. The bricks provide some nice free diffusion but I had major issues with the paneling....... ---------------- (First, let me say that I have no personal issue with the poster above! It is simply representative of many posts over time...) Two comments in general to kick the hornets nest... I have repeatedly heard that qualified professional services are "out of my price range". Yet many of the same pay ridiculous prices for elaborate cables and fancy surge suppression strips! And a qualified pro should not cost more then ~$200/hour with the actual time required being about 2 hours. Figure $400 for a complete workup of the room and maybe another $200 for specific recommendation of specific treatments and locations and you would have the blueprint for a state of the art room - given the inherent limitations of the room you are dealing with. After all, how many 'golden ears' here have $1500+ turntables or CD players and i won't even try to embarrass those with $100+ interconnects!? Talk about interesting priorities! And i find no lack of folks who are willing to spend ~$1000 for new crossovers, but LOTS who claim room treatment is too expensive - without ever obtaining an accurate estimate! Yet I have not heard of ONE person actually pricing this out! Oh sure, lots talk about if they were to try this, or how a qualified pro is not available or...lots of excuses that allow you to stop thinking as you have already ruled the option out with your mindset...but few have asked "how can I find someone and not spend a fortune!?" But that approach keeps one thinking and exploring possibilities, and we certainly wouldn't want that! But I have no heard mention of one single serious acoustical tool for use in room analysis - and no! all are not expensive! Nevertheless, MANY are continuing to run around chasing the magical RTA! And sorry folks, this will not provide the necessary information regarding the component factors you need to know to address room analysis. This is a moot point! So I simply wish that we would have a shift to more viable ways of addressing this issue instead of the "it can't be done" mentality, or the "I can find a generic kit" to solve my specific issue, or the ever popular and well intentioned, but fundamentally flawed, "let's buy a bigger fancier RTA"!!! Oh, and one more comment - bricks may provide some diffusion - but take a minute to examine their maximum variation in surface depth and calculate for what frequencies you are talking! What you are actually dealing with is a hard reflective surface!!! Just knowing room dimensions is not enough, as each surface material has frequency dependent characteristics! As do any of the treatments you apply! So do not allow yourself to think that you are controlling reflections. You are at BEST affecting only a small portion of the frequency spectrum at some energy level. These broad based assumptions will cause you more problems then they will solve! There are many potential solutions, but more time needs to be spent learning about this area here. And it will save alot of time and money on less then optimal treatments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olorin Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 -- On 7/19/2005 5:04:38 AM dragonfyr wrote: (First, let me say that I have no personal issue with the poster above! It is simply representative of many posts over time...) Two comments in general to kick the hornets nest... I have repeatedly heard that qualified professional services are "out of my price range". Yet many of the same pay ridiculous prices for elaborate cables and fancy surge suppression strips! -- I didn't. -- And a qualified pro should not cost more then ~$200/hour with the actual time required being about 2 hours. Figure $400 for a complete workup of the room and maybe another $200 for specific recommendation of specific treatments and locations and you would have the blueprint for a state of the art room - given the inherent limitations of the room you are dealing with. After all, how many 'golden ears' here have $1500+ turntables or CD players and i won't even try to embarrass those with $100+ interconnects!? Talk about interesting priorities! -- I don't have a $1500 turntable, nor do I have an expensive CD player. My DVD player is a Panasonic XP-30 for which I paid $150. My CD player is a $50 Toshiba DVD player. I'm sure all of my cables put together are less than $100. See the picture yet? $600 is too much to pay for someone to come and measure my room. -- And i find no lack of folks who are willing to spend ~$1000 for new crossovers -- You don't find them when you're looking in my direction. -- , but LOTS who claim room treatment is too expensive - without ever obtaining an accurate estimate! -- As long as an "accurate estimate" costs $600, I won't be getting one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Gosh, stop with the arrogant everyone is stupid crap; uou can't just lump everyone into specific categories. If you want to play the category game, I bet 90% of the klipsch fans are exactly opposite of what you accuse them of anyway. Why not be productive and share some of your own experiences after using your own advice? I don't see you pricing room treatments either. Do you seriously read everything that's going on in the thread or do you just see the title and figure it's time to get on your soapbox? "So I simply wish that we would have a shift to more viable ways of addressing this issue instead of the "it can't be done" mentality, or the "I can find a generic kit" to solve my specific issue, or the ever popular and well intentioned, but fundamentally flawed, "let's buy a bigger fancier RTA"!!!" Nobody in this thread has exhibited any of these mindsets whatsoever. In fact, most of the discussion was concerning the measurement and function of acoustical treatments. Surely you would support learning about how the devices work. And I still think you overrate the necesity of measuring the room. I bet with a little more time and effort I could make a room sound just as good, if not better than if I shelled out the big bucks for some "professional" to tell me what to do. I think the MAIN reason people don't seek acoustical treatment is simply because it's butt ugly, which severely detracts from the enjoyment of the system (- http://www.anstendig.org/) I love what you have to say dragon and agree most of the time, but I seriously can't stand the approach...There are times that I passionately agree with what you say, but the manner in which you say it just makes me want to disagree. I don't think that's a good thing, especially if you truly wanted to see people stop being stupid about dropping thousands on cables. There's a big difference between being a complainer and actually showing the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ51 Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dragonfyr, I am thankful that you do not have a personal issue with me. Being the person who wrote the quote you chose to use, I also harbor no ill feelings towards you. With that said, lets have a look at your post. My comments are in-line below. JJ ---------------- On 7/19/2005 5:04:38 AM dragonfyr wrote: > > > > > ---------------- > On 7/15/2005 5:39:20 PM JJ51 wrote: > > I agree that a professional with the right measuring equipment will give great results in treating the room. Unfortunately in my case, this was way out of my price range. So, I studied acoustics for three months, and > took my best shot at treating the room. > > In my case, I have a living room with wood paneling on three walls and bricks all along the back. The bricks provide some nice free diffusion > but I had major issues with the paneling....... > > ---------------- > > (First, let me say that I have no personal issue with the poster above! It is simply representative of many posts > overtime...) Unfortunately, your post is also representative of many posts that come up on this forum. It has absolutely nothing to do with the question that was asked by the person who started the thread and is highly opinionated. Out of 32+ replies on this thread, one person actually answered the question asked by the original poster. That was me. What ensued afterwards was a huge debate on the ONLY way to treat a room acoustically. I stayed out of that and with good reason. However, your post has forced a response from me. > > Two comments in general to kick the hornets nest... > > I have repeatedly heard that qualified professional services are "out of my price range". Yet many of the same pay ridiculous prices for elaborate cables and fancy surge suppression strips! > > And a qualified pro should not cost more then ~$200/hour with the actual time required being about 2 hours. Figure >$400 for a complete workup of the room and maybe another $200 for specific recommendation of specific treatments >and locations and you would have the blueprint for a state of the art room - given the inherent limitations of the room >you are dealing with. After all, how many 'golden ears' here have $1500+ turntables or CD players and i won't even >try to embarrass those with $100+ interconnects!? Talk about interesting priorities! The comment above really brings light to this thread. $600 to find out where to put a Band-Aid and what Band-Aid to use. Do you really think the poster who asked a question about $69.00 charcoal gray base traps on Ebay has the budget to spend 600.00 to find out what his room issues are and then who knows how much to treat them? I find it interesting that the people who brought up all the better ways to treat a room didn't put a price tag on any of the actual materials. In addition to that, if I was going to bring in a pro to treat my room, I would rip it down to the studs, do it right and let the pro make recommendations along with coming in to treat the room after laying the proper foundation. I sincerely hope to do this some day. It is my dream to build a proper home theater / listening room but that is not possible at this time. Folks this is a Band-Aid for people who aren't loaded with money, can't afford professionals, but have issues with their room. In my case, my room treatment cost $445.00 for all of the materials used and it yielded wonderful results. I have no problem being told that the product that started the thread sucks. I have no problem being told that the product currently sitting on my walls can't possibly help. Thats fine. It did help though guys. No biggie. I do however, have a problem with a view point that only sees the top end performance treatments as an alternative to everyone's problems. What a myopic viewpoint. There are many extremely knowledgeable people on this forum and several of you chimed in regarding acoustics and your right. You definitely know your stuff. It just seems to me that you may be forgetting who it is your trying to help. I was hesitant to answer the original posters question because I feared that a religious debate on acoustic treatment would ensue. Since I am using the product, I chose to provide some feedback on how it worked for me. The single biggest reason why I chose to join this forum rather than continue lurking was so that could say thanks to many of the people that have helped me with issues in the past and just about all of you who responded in this thread have helped me in the past with something. I wish I had found Griffs thread on front screen projection earlier. I didn't even think to come here for video advice. My point is, what separates this forum from so many others is how truly helpful it is. Just remember, there are far more people on this forum without tons of money, than there are with tons of money. At least that is my opinion. It is my hope that the guy who started this thread (Arman) is happily hanging his new bass traps on the wall and excited to be fixing a problem himself. JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 ---------------- On 7/19/2005 4:24:07 AM colterphoto1 wrote: anyone buy a set of these yet? I'm particularly interested in the Lernd (sp?) styled ones. ---------------- Michael... i believe JJ51 mentioned earlier that he has some FoamByMail Bass Traps in use, but he may not have noticed your post. If I recall correctly (DrWho can correct me on this), but Artto has some of the Auralex ones. Colin (and perhaps Griff?) have Realtraps. I'm not familiar of anyone here who has two types to compare though... BTW, what happened to your picture? I thought it was kinda neat you had decided to use the real you. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 yes, artto has the auralex traps, a variation of the RPG skyline diffusors and of course all those curved masonite panels. He's also got some heavy absorbtion on that rear wall (dunno what he's using though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ51 Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 ---------------- On 7/19/2005 10:31:44 PM formica wrote: ---------------- On 7/19/2005 4:24:07 AM colterphoto1 wrote: anyone buy a set of these yet? I'm particularly interested in the Lernd (sp?) styled ones. ---------------- Michael... i believe JJ51 mentioned earlier that he has some FoamByMail Bass Traps in use, but he may not have noticed your post. If I recall correctly (DrWho can correct me on this), but Artto has some of the Auralex ones. Colin (and perhaps Griff?) have Realtraps. I'm not familiar of anyone here who has two types to compare though... BTW, what happened to your picture? I thought it was kinda neat you had decided to use the real you. Rob ---------------- Thanks for catching this Rob. Michael, I sent you PM. JJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 ---------------- On 7/19/2005 10:31:44 PM formica wrote: Colin (and perhaps Griff?) have Realtraps. I'm not familiar of anyone here who has two types to compare though... ---------------- Actually, no. I built my own traps from plans Ethan offers on his personal site. Unfortunately, I also had to give up my studio. My current "listening room" is completely untreated, and an abject disaster acoustically. Like JJ above, I don't have the money to really do my room right. Hell, I don't even have the money to do my system right at this juncture. Divorces and the ensuing financial chaos they bring really suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ51 Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 ---------------- On 7/20/2005 1:31:45 PM Griffinator wrote: Actually, no. I built my own traps from plans Ethan offers on his personal site. Unfortunately, I also had to give up my studio. My current "listening room" is completely untreated, and an abject disaster acoustically. Like JJ above, I don't have the money to really do my room right. Hell, I don't even have the money to do my system right at this juncture. Divorces and the ensuing financial chaos they bring really suck. ---------------- Sorry to hear that but I'll still bet it sounds better than most of the systems on the block. I am also in the process of trying to get my system right but it is because of my own mistakes. When I first bought my KLF-20's, I had no clue what timbre matching was and neither did my dealer. I ended up with an RC-3II for my center and the match was not good. I worked around the problem by placing it on the floor in a broadband absorber and aimed it up at the listening position. This made it a much closer match. I have a saying that I would rather be lucky than good any day of the week and this time, it was luck. I am in the process of working towards an all Legend HT. I currently have KLF-20's up front with a KLF-C7 for center. I am scheduled to do an 1800 mile road trip this weekend for another pair of KLF-20's. I plan to do a HornEd mod on them and use one for a rear and the other for a center. After that, I will need to find one more KLF-C7 to match the other for side surrounds. I wish I had studied more before mixing the reference series with the legend series. When this is all said and done, I will have an RC-3II and a set of RS-3II speakers to offer up to the forum. They are well taken care of and I will be more concerned with finding them a good home than making any money on them. That reminds me of the first time my wife came in and saw me reading this forum. She rolled her eyes and groaned and I said..... "Don't worry honey. This forum is free." JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 ---------------- On 7/20/2005 1:31:45 PM Griffinator wrote: My current "listening room" is completely untreated, and an abject disaster acoustically. ---------------- Neither is mine at the moment... but measurement shows some typical bass resonances. Not that bad, but, as usual... a project for a better room are in my head. ---------------- Divorces and the ensuing financial chaos they bring really suck. ---------------- Didn't even know you were married. Give it some time and it settles out... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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