RSW Specs up - now let the questions begin!

[bacevedo]

I am interested in the RSW 12.

Comparing the 3 subs, it seems there is a big jump in performance from the 10 to the 12, but not as big of a jump from the 12 to the 15. Is this true? Or is there more to the 15 than the numbers show? I say this because the 15 only goes down 3 Hz lower (19 Hz vs 22 Hz), and only has 2 db more output at 30Hz.

That leads into my 2nd question. What is that Max Output spec? It says for the RSW 12 that it is 119 db at 30 Hz 1/8 space 1 meter. (The RSW 15 says 121 db for the same info and the RSW 10 says 109 db)

What does 1/8 space mean? I thought it meant between two given frequency ranges you divide it up into 8 equal "spaces". Is that what that means? Then this number would seem to indicate an average, but then it says at 30 Hz. I am just confused by what this spec is saying. Is it saying that at 30Hz it is capable of 119 db, or is it the avg db from 30 Hz up to some point? What point, what distortion? I am trying to compare these numbers to the TN data of other subs (specifically the velodyne spl or hgs subs). I know it is apples to oranges, but I might be able to correlate seeing how the KSW specs are posted by Klipsch and TN, and doing the same type of conversions for the RSW sub.

Also, why a rear firing active with a front firing passive? Why not do a front firing active with a rear firing passive? Just curious. Is the rear driver covered with a speaker grill as well? Just wondering if it will be out in the open for little fingers or big paws to get a hold of. I would love to see some pictures of the rear of the sub - trying to figure out where the connectors are if there is a big ole woofer back there.

Finally, it says there are 2 RCA inputs so I am assuming the use of a L & R input with an LFE setting (crossover defeat switch). Will these inputs be summed like the KSW subs, or will you only need to use 1 of them for a mono sub output receiver (as opposed to using a y adapter)? Again, just curious.

These subs look pretty incredible (a friggin' 1000W rms amp with 2400 watt peak power - yowza) - and I can't wait to actually listen to one and see how much I have been missing with my "lowly" KSW 12. Can any Klipsch guys comment on how big the difference would be (Like Night and Day, Black and White, etc.)? How do they sound - tight, deep and punchy? Musical?

Thanks for the info!

Bryan

This message has been edited by bacevedo on 09-17-2001 at 04:58 PM

[dougdrake2]

Bryan - What took you so long to analyze the specs??

I believe 1/8 space refers to its placement in a room when the measurement was taken. A room has 8 corners in it -- 4 on the floor and 4 on the ceiling. 1/8 space means it is in one of the corners (presumably on the floor).

"Is it saying that at 30Hz it is capable of 119 db..." Yes, within a distortion limit (usually 10%).

Doug

[TVodhanel]

I'd just wait until Nousaine gets his hands on one. Trying to compare a *spec* to a real world measurement done using repeatable methods(like TN) is iffy at best. To even hope to get close, you'd have to know the distance between the sub and the measuring mic(TN uses 2m),the distortion limits used during tests(TN uses a 10% limit),the type of input signal used during tests(TN uses special ramped pulsing),and the size of the room that this *1/8th* space is considered a part of(TN uses a HUGE 7500 cu-ft room).

TV

[TheEAR]

Mua ha ha ha

TheEAR(s) is in a trance...LOL

Finally Klipsch has the specs,LOL

I am going for the three RSW units,simple.

Nuff said

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[bacevedo]

Yeah - TV - I guess I am gonna have to wait. But when it comes to this, patience is something that doesn't come easily - I want it now!

I am hoping that Klipsch is so proud of these subs that they push them out to the reviewers soon.

By the way, would SVS ever consider making a box type sub? For those of us who can't put a big cylinder in our room (well, we could, but our spouse couldn't ). I am assuming with your expertise you could probably build a pretty killer box sub, too. Just curious.

And Doug - yeah - sorry it took me so long to analyze the specs - work got in the way!

Bryan

This message has been edited by bacevedo on 09-17-2001 at 11:24 PM

[Guest JimG]

Bryan,

Let me try to answer some of your questions.

1) There is way more to the numbers than what the specs imply. It is really hard to quantify a subwoofers true performance using only one max output spec and a frequency response. What we have tried to do with these new models is give you a better idea of real world performance. The KSW output levels are max levels - however depending on the model, that max level may have come in the neighborhood of 70Hz or so. Is that indicative of what that product can do? Yes and no. I say no because most people are looking for deeper bass than that, so we tried to give output numbers that would be in the typical range of performance that most people are looking to gain. It was also hard to try to choose a common frequency to rate the three subs output levels so that it wouldn't look weird for one. 30Hz seemed to be the answer. As for the differences, the three models are obviously tuned differently and therefore have different rolloff rates at the bottom. At 30Hz, the 10 is starting to rolloff because it's tuned to about 30Hz. The 12 and 15 are tuned lower and therefore have similar outputs at 30Hz. Now when you drop down to say 20Hz, the difference between the 12 & 15 jumps to nearly 15dB!!! That's because the 12 is below its tuning frequency and the 15 isn't. Also, what you can't put in a spec is the way the 15 simply energizes a room. It's presence is always felt at any volume. The 12 is a fantastic subwoofer and probably enough sub for the majority of people out there, however, for the rest of us, there's the 15...or more than one 15.

2) The max output spec is for 30Hz only - just like it says. It is not an average. There are frequencies at which all three of the models have output levels considerably higher than what they do at 30Hz. We choose to list only the 30Hz info in the spec. The output levels were determined by loading the sub in a corner (1/8 space - see #3 below), placing a mike at 1m and then running a tone sweep. We took the 30Hz reading off of the resultant curve. I'm not sure of the distortion levels but I know it was before amp clipping. I'd have to bug the engineers to find out more info on that. (BTW, I have output levels for several other frequencies and other testing methods too. We just didn't publish those numbers because that would have been really confusing!)

3) 1/8 space simply means that the subwoofer was placed in a corner ("corner-loaded") and had three boundaries to work off of. It's output is therefore being reinforced by the room just like it is when it's in your house. We feel that this is a more meaningful way to show output levels since subs get put in corners when people buy them. You don't stick one in the middle of a room.

4) The passive is on the front because we tended to get a smoother curve from the sub when the active was on the back firing into the corner. There is no grille on the back. Go to the Newscenter on the website and then to the photo gallery. Under Reference products you will find a picture of the back of an RSW-15. It was not easy trying to figure out how to get all the necessary connections on the back but I think we came up with a great solution.

5) The L&R inputs are summed so you could technically use either one as a single for LFE. However, you will typically gain a few dB of input signal by using a Y-cord and using both inputs for LFE. (That's how I have done it on mine at home.) The Line Out jacks are wired directly off of the inputs so they are in Stereo and NOT summed together. They are also unfiltered.

6) The RSW's sound pretty different from the KSW's. Obviously, output levels are far greater with the RSW's - in fact, above 30Hz, the RSW-10 has pretty much the same output as the KSW-15, but the KSW-15 is tuned lower and therefore has better output at 25Hz. The RSW's also have a pretty flat frequency response. They sound very "tight" and "quick" and are exceptionally "musical". The KSW's have a peak in their response curves that hovers around 60-70Hz. That makes them great for home theater, but is also why a lot of people don't like them as much for music. As far as tuning and response goes, I'd say the KSW-15 is the closest to the RSW's but even it isn't in the same category. The KSW's are still great subs as about anyone can attest to, but you get what you pay for...the RSW is a different league in performance and money both. There are lots of different tastes among many different customers and both lines of subs will appeal to many people in different ways. Ultimately, you need to listen to them in your room to make the decision yourself.

Alright, that's enough for now I guess, although I'm sure I haven't answered everyone's questions. I hope I have cleared up some of them at least. I'm hungry now and it's 12:30 so I'm going to eat! More later!

Jim

[t-man]

Jim,

In regards to the 12"er, what frequency is it tuned down to? Where does the flat curve begin to roll off? At 25hz?? or lower even?

Could you give us an spl number for both the 12 and 15 at 20 hz and 15 hz?

When are you going to let this Tom Nusainne guy have his way with these? It sounds like you guys have created some nice subs. Would like to see how they objectively stand up to the competition.

Maybe Horned Ed could get some, and compare them to his SVS as well!

Thanks,

T-man

------------------

KG 5.5 (mains)

KG 2.2v (center)

KLF-C7 (center in storage)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12 (sub)

Denon AVR 681/1601

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Kenwood LVD700 LD

Sony CD changer

Sony 27" Trinitron

Sony PLX I

[bacevedo]

Thanks JimG!

You answered all of my questions!

I figured there was more to the 15 than just the specs showed.

Now you have made my decision harder!

I was set on the 12, but now I don't want to get it and feel that I am missing something because I didn't get the 15.

But I am thinking that the RSW 12 would suffice for me, as one KSW 12 is almost doing the trick. I thought about just getting one KSW 15, but if even the RSW 10 can better it (at least in spl), I would think that the RSW 12 would better the KSW 15 in both extension and output. True?

Can you post those FR curves for the different RSW subs? I would like to see what I am giving up in terms of 20 Hz performance with the RSW 12 vs. the RSW 15. Because right now, my KSW 12 is almost non-existent in this (20 Hz) territory. If the RSW 12 can post some respectable numbers here, I may save the $400 and get it instead. I really doubt my wife would let me get the RSW 15 anyway - too much cash and the sub would probably be too big! For her at least, but not for me!

But of course - I have to listen to them first!

Thanks JimG - I really appreciate your info!

Bryan

[Guest JimG]

t-man,

The 12 is tuned to about 25Hz. It starts to roll-off there, thus it's freq. resp. spec of 22Hz for the low-end.

In the same manner that the 30Hz output specs were generated, the 20Hz numbers are 100db (12) and 114.5dB (15). There were no tests run for 15Hz. Keep in mind that these are max output numbers, so that whole flat frequency response thing goes right out the window when you're pushing a sub to its max to get max output SPL numbers.

I'm not sure when the first reviews will hit magazines. I too am curious to see how they do...as long as they are "objective" reviews as you say. It will really be hard to do any apples to apples comparisons from reviews though since every reviewer tends to use different techniques and they all have different rooms. You should be able to see how they stack up to other models that have been reviewed by the same guy in the same manner in the same room though. But I again must stress that the ultimate review should come from YOU, not somebody writing for a magazine. I'm more concerned about what you guys in the real world think. I'm looking forward to seeing some feedback from people who buy them.

Bryan,

Yeah, the 15 is kind of big (big being relative), but big subs have big performance. (It's pretty much the law of physics - we can't change the rules.) Maybe you can show your wife a 15 and sell her on the real wood. They look awfully nice in Maple and Cherry!

Jim

[t-man]

Jim,

Thanks for the prompt and accurate responses to my questions. Looks like I'm now salivating for a comparison between the SVS 25-31 and the RSW12. Both tuned at the same frequency, and putting out some very impressive numbers, statistically.

So, who will be the first to buy both and compare for us!!!! I would gladly provide space in my home should somebody want to finance such an experiment.

------------------

KG 5.5 (mains)

KG 2.2v (center)

KLF-C7 (center in storage)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12 (sub)

Denon AVR 681/1601

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Kenwood LVD700 LD

Sony CD changer

Sony 27" Trinitron

Sony PLX I

[bacevedo]

Thanks again Jim!

How far from the wall will these subs need to be? Since there is an active driver in the back, they obviously can't be right up to it - but how far out does it need to be? Just trying to figure out how far out it will be from the wall to the front of the sub.

And that spec of 100db at 20Hz for the RSW 12 aint bad at all! I am afraid if I got 115db at 20 Hz, everything in my house would just shake - 'cause I doubt that I could hear that low! But you know, now that I think about it - I can FEEL it that low - and if I am going to spend $1400, what's another $400 for the ultimate in performance? Reference level all the way down to 20Hz! I never play my system at reference, and the extra headroom could make it an ultimate setup.

I used to worry about my RB5's drowning out my KSW12, but now I am worried that RSW 15 would drown out my RB5's. Oh what a problem that I would love to have!

Thanks,

Bryan

Oh, and by the way - those new pics look nice. I like all of the home theather lifestyle pics! Very classy. And you are right - the back of these subs is a testament to good engineering. I like how the amp plate curves around the woofer. Those new copper woofers like pretty amazing - nice big surrounds!

This message has been edited by bacevedo on 09-18-2001 at 05:47 PM

[TheEAR]

Thank Jim,maybe I should get two RSW15's!This should give near 120dB in my small room near 20Hz!Very impressive numbers any way you look at them.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Guest JimG]

Thanks for the kind words guys! As for how far to put them from the wall, just a few inches will do. I have the 15 about 3-4" (I think) from the wall and it does fine. The 12 is about 4" from the back of my sofa. That one is sitting parallel to the wall so it's using the back of the sofa as one of the corner walls.

theEARS, I did a demo for our sales guys here back a few months ago and I happened to have 2 15's on hand so I hooked them both up together. It was awesome! We did it in a really big room and the subs were far away from any corners or even walls - they were just sitting in front of the RPTV - they still hurt when I was pushing them hard. I'd like to hear from someone who is nuts enough to use multiple 15's in a home environment. Who's gonna be the first one??? The race is on!

Jim

[bacevedo]

Now the hardest part is waiting for them to come to my local shop (Early October?)! I think I will probably end up with the RSW12, but of course that means that I want it NOW!

Oh well, they say patiences is a virtue - however whoever said that must have never wanted anything!

Is Tom Nousaine going to get some of these for review? I hope you send him all 3 at one point, so we know how each one stacks up - it won't do me any good if the only review is of the 15, 'cause I want to know what the 10 and 12 can do, too.

What happens on these subs when they get into the 'teens? If I get some bass at 16 Hz, will the 12 just roll it off gracefully? It won't bottom out will it?

Thanks,

Bryan

[Guest JimG]

They behave pretty gracefully at the limit. We've tried to cover everything to ensure that they don't suffer from any ill-effects, even when you beat on them. The 15 is really the only one of the three that has any menaingful output in the teens.

Jim

[TheEAR]

JimG remember dont EVER and I mean EVER push TheEAR(s)

I have...yes again

Revel B15

AerialAcoustics SW12

Sunfire Signature

Sunfire Mark II

Sunfire Junior

Carver Knight Shadow(will add a second unit)

All can work as one supersub

Plus I am going to get the RSW12 and 15(if they measure up) and a Velodyne HGS18!I hear the SVS Ultra only ONE time and I was very impressed,and HornEd has nothing but praise for the Ultras.

WHO BETTER THEN THEEARS?

WHO BETTER?

To me a good sound system has quality and POWER,power to crack plaster.I am an audiophile and a BASS freak.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[sesquim]

TheEar(s)WOW man u have such a nice system!! doesnt your neighbor complain? And can you PLEASE post a pic of your system if you can.

[Seb]

HAHAAARRR!!

Another BASS FANATIC!!!

Geez I'd like to crank up the bass in your room theears!

but don't worry... the day will come when I will beat you... only I don't have enough financial resources right now to do so.

hmmmm... maybe a couple SVS Ultras on top of my PW 2200 would give you a run for your money, no?

------------------

'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

[TheEAR]

Sesquim sorry TheEAR(s) main sound room is my shrine,only a few audiophiles got the chance to see my audiophile craze.I never posted any pics of my sound system.Right now it looks more like some store sound room.Most would even say I took the pics at some High-End store! LOL Its nothing pretty,the room is packed with gear like an egg!

And about the complaints,yes I had several.I just have a bottle of good wine here and there and no complaints since.Bribing does help a bit

Seb you want to be defeat TheEAR(s),I welcome the challenge. Know this I also have the KSW12 and 15 plus my Velodyne HGS18 should arrive in about two weeks! He he

I am also looking at M&K MX700 subs,not a "sub sub" just awesome punch.Its like a mid-sub,huge punch to help the subwoofer subs.

When I am finished(will I ever stop?)my system should hit over 130dB at 20Hz in room!And stay above 118 at 16Hz!Not a maximum peak here!

WHO BETTER THEN THE EAR(S)?

WHO BETTER?

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[boa12]

horned where are u? u must meet TheEAR(s)!