psg Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 Hi, One of my KHorns has a K-43 woofer in it, installed after the previous owner had an incident with DC current. His Klipsch dealer said it was fine to use a K-43 from an industrial La Scala. I was told by Frzninvt that the low end suffers more by putting a K-43 in a Khorn than it does in a La Scala (since the La Scala doesn't go as low anyway). The speaker sounds fine, and it's hard for me to tell the difference between the two speakers because of room acoustics at low frequencies. But If the consensus is that I would gain more than a bit by replacing the K-43 by a K-33, then I'll swap it out with a K-33 from one of my La Scala's. The only thing stopping me now is that the bass bin access to my La Scala is not through underneath but through the top bin, making it a more difficult operation requiring the complete removal of the mid-horn and crossover, and then there's a tight gap to work through to unscrew the K-33. Not trivial. But I'll do it if it's worth it! What do you figure is the -3dB cutoff for a K-43 KHorns instead of 33 Hz? Opinions? Thanks! (I emailed Trey a few days ago but have not heard anything from him yet.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 The K33E is 34.5 Hz Fs and the K43 is somewhere around 42 Hz Fs, if I remember correctly. The Khorn Fc is 40Hz, so you will not find the same low frequency extension as with the K33E, really the Fs of the driver should be below the Fc of the horn. What you basically gain with the K43, though, is power handling capability. Best used in a LS or a Belle, as they each have an Fc of approx. 70Hz. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted September 7, 2005 Author Share Posted September 7, 2005 So you figure I might be down 3 dB around 40 Hz or so, maybe even higher? Yeah... It was a bad call from the Klipsch store. Guess I'll have to swap out the woofer with one of my La Scala... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Yeah... It was a bad call from the Klipsch store. Guess I'll have to swap out the woofer with one of my La Scala... Ironically a more expensive call at that! I too would swap it around... Aren't we pains in the @$$? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 As a point in fact, the K43s I have measured have a lower Fs than the K33s I have measured. The Fs of the driver by itself tells us nothing. A low Qts driver with an Fs of 100hz can go down to 10hz, if the horn has the correct taper rate and mouth area. The K43 has better performance in the Klipschorn above 50hz than the K33, but less output below 50hz. Klipsch actually made a special K44 for the theater version of the Klipschorn. I used to put these in dance clubs and drive them with Hafler 500s.With a touch of EQ it had huge output in the low end. Just make sure you run a matched pair of whatever you use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 Interesting. So I might detect changes other than in the low end. Rob, the original owner already had a pair of industrial La Scala's he wasn't using so the tech used it. That made a pair of industrial LS useless so I don't see the point of doing that. What I should have done back then is ordered a K33 from Klipsch Parts to be delivered to his home (in the US) that I would have picked up when I got the KHorns. I'm sure getting one in Canada would cost much more now. I'll live with an un-matched pair of LS rather than the un-matched pair of KHorns, at least for a while. I just that hope what is inside my LS is similar enough to my other KHorn K33 that I only have to swap one of them and not the pair, since that is going to be a pain to do. I've lived with this for months but now it's bugging me. Guess I'll have to do the swap this weekend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 If you would like one, you can contact Bob (BEC) as he sells new K-33 at the same price as Klipsch USA and is cross border shipping friendly. There is also eBay... single units are cheaper than 1/2 a pair and K43 more expensive than K33. You could also offer it up for trade here... You are right, Klipsch Canada is MUCH more expensive, and Klipsch USA won't ship accross the border. [:^)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 That's true... There is good ol' Bob to the rescue again. I'll start by opening up the LS to see what is in there. When I bought them from a cousin 25 years ago, he said something about replacing both woofers with Gauss (which manufactured for Klipsch at the time), so I'm curious to see what's in there anyway and it'll eat at me from on now until I do it. It might not be a Klipsch-labelled part and then I'd need to identify it and make sure it's a K33 in disguise before I use it in the KHorn. Thanks Rob! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 If you need a stateside address I think I am the closest forum member to the Canadian border in your area you can use mine if need be. Just let me know and I can provide it to you. If you really get in a pinch I could trade you the K-33 out of my center La Scala for the K-43. My La Scala is a 1978 model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 If you need a stateside address I think I am the closest forum member to the Canadian border in your area you can use mine if need be. Just let me know and I can provide it to you. If you really get in a pinch I could trade you the K-33 out of my center La Scala for the K-43. My La Scala is a 1978 model. Thanks Charles! That's nice of you to offer. I do have relatives in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu so that would only be a few hours round trip, and give me a chance to meet you, so I'll keep those options in mind (shipping address and trade). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 Okay, here's what I did until I get proper test tones... (and until I do the swap regardless of these results) Using track 3 on Diana Krall's "Love Scenes", I fed the sub pre-out (set to 40 Hz) to a power amp and then to one Klipschorn after the other. On the bass string notes and the receiver set to -30 dB, both speakers reached peaks of 72 dB on the same passage. Only the single KHorn is playing low frequencies when I do this; no other speakers are connected. For comparison, I connected the sub and got the same response. I conclude that at least to the low frequencies on that recording, the K-33 and K-43 are performing similarly, within differences from room acoustics. Certainly not a 10 dB difference. I'll try the same with test tones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 what kind of sub are you running? Also keep in mind that the 40Hz crossover is probably only 12dB/octave on the top end, which means notes at 80Hz are only 12dB down....Actually, a speaker that is 10dB down below 40Hz is 2dB louder than notes 12dB down at 80Hz (in other words you are essentially EQ'ing the khorn to be flat with your crossover). I would also suggest listening at volumes closer to 90-100dB so that you can actually hear what's going on (take into account the F-M curve which shows that frequencies that low need to be like 30dB louder when listening at 70dB, whereas they only need to be closer to 5dB louder at 90-100dB). I would bet that you aren't even hearing any of the low notes, but rather the higher frequencies "seeping through" the crossover. I also wouldn't exactly put diana krall down as a typical source for subbass material... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Over the years I've purchased at least 25 pairs of La Scalas. I'll be at least half of those had something other than Klipsch drivers in the bass bins. Always open them up and check. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 (I emailed Trey a few days ago but have not heard anything from him yet.) Got this reply from Steve Phillips (hope it's okay to post it)... Hmmm. Can't cut & paste from another application on galeon on this forum. Too bad! Anyway, I just finished the switch between one very nice looking K-43 and a square magnet K-33-P. Got the opportunity to completely disassemble a La Scala so it has lost its secrets for now. Rope caulking will be a piece of cake later on! Using a 31.5 Hz test tone, the KHorn gained 4 to 5 dB from the K-43 to the K-33-P in my room, perhaps not as much as some have told me but a significant difference none the less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 I am interested in the K-43 that you took out of your K-horn, gimme a shout and let me know if it is already spoken for, I am not that far away that shipping would be astronomical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 People have seen these before, but what the heck... Using my daughter's $40 digital camera since I broke mine... The square one is the K-33 and only looks bigger because of camera angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 The picture doesn't show how much beefier the K-43 looks and feels. Nice logo on it too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 I am interested in the K-43 that you took out of your K-horn, gimme a shout and let me know if it is already spoken for, I am not that far away that shipping would be astronomical. Well, it's currently spoken for in the La Scala I took the K-33 from! Sorry about that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted September 12, 2005 Share Posted September 12, 2005 When I bought them from a cousin 25 years ago, he said something about replacing both woofers with Gauss (which manufactured for Klipsch at the time), so I'm curious to see what's in there anyway and it'll eat at me from on now until I do it. It might not be a Klipsch-labelled part ... Guess you got lucky... finding true K33's in there? Greg's right about LaScala's often turning up with the wrong woofers... even more true here where Klipsch parts cost a premium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted September 12, 2005 Author Share Posted September 12, 2005 When I bought them from a cousin 25 years ago, he said something about replacing both woofers with Gauss (which manufactured for Klipsch at the time), so I'm curious to see what's in there anyway and it'll eat at me from on now until I do it. It might not be a Klipsch-labelled part ... Guess you got lucky... finding true K33's in there? Greg's right about LaScala's often turning up with the wrong woofers... even more true here where Klipsch parts cost a premium. True enough. I don't think my cousin would have tricked me voluntarily, but who knows what people told him at the time! I guess the woofers were properly swapped with Klipsch parts, and they told him that these were outsourced to Gauss (which may or may not be the case). Happy camper here! My little To-Do list is progressing... peel off anti-vibration black disk... check. cap upgrade on the KHorns... check. swap K43 and K33... check rope caulk all mid-horns... to do. cap upgrade on the La Scala... to do. get the veneer top strips fixed on the KHorns... to do. buy a CD player... to do (check the thread http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/591869/ShowPost.aspx !) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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