Kriton Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Hey, to answer the original question... I looked for alternatives to rope caulk, and none seemed to have the advantages of the caulk - I did not consider Dynamat, only because I could not apply it in the same fashion as rope caulk, and it was more expensive. I ahve read Bob Crites signature request not to put the caulk on horns, because it is a pain to get off, but really, I took all the caulk off one of my horns and redid it recently and with an exacto knife and a little time in front of the tube, it cut off easily and came off relatively cleanly. The mess that is left can be easily wiped up with some sparing use of goof off, and they clean up slick (just be aware of the fumes from the cleaner - rot your brain and make you fly like you have wings). Now the other statement by Bob that I read about the oil seeping from the caulk, I just havent found to be accurate, at least for the short time I have had mine caulked (1 year +). I have had no oil seepage that I can ascertain so far, but I did take the precaution of opeing up my cases and wrapping light gauze around the stuff, to keep it from sagging or deciding to weep. It seems to be that a nice saran wrap job over the caulk might have a better effect, and won't disturb the damping properties. (Ooooh and it comes in different colors for your PC case modders - jk). For those who say it is all bunkum, I did an extensive a/b caulked and not caulked (with my wife -pro musician and great ear, as the blind test subject) and she picked up the differences right away without prompting...so YMMV. K EDITED TO ADD: It is just me or is johnnyholiday completely incomprehensible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Hey, to answer the original question... I looked for alternatives to rope caulk, and none seemed to have the advantages of the caulk - I did not consider Dynamat, only because I could not apply it in the same fashion as rope caulk, and it was more expensive. I ahve read Bob Crites signature request not to put the caulk on horns, because it is a pain to get off, but really, I took all the caulk off one of my horns and redid it recently and with an exacto knife and a little time in front of the tube, it cut off easily and came off relatively cleanly. The mess that is left can be easily wiped up with some sparing use of goof off, and they clean up slick (just be aware of the fumes from the cleaner - rot your brain and make you fly like you have wings). Now the other statement by Bob that I read about the oil seeping from the caulk, I just havent found to be accurate, at least for the short time I have had mine caulked (1 year +). I have had no oil seepage that I can ascertain so far, but I did take the precaution of opeing up my cases and wrapping light gauze around the stuff, to keep it from sagging or deciding to weep. It seems to be that a nice saran wrap job over the caulk might have a better effect, and won't disturb the damping properties. (Ooooh and it comes in different colors for your PC case modders - jk). For those who say it is all bunkum, I did an extensive a/b caulked and not caulked (with my wife -pro musician and great ear, as the blind test subject) and she picked up the differences right away without prompting...so YMMV. K EDITED TO ADD: It is just me or is johnnyholiday completely incomprehensible? i agree compleetly with your sound findings acoustically ringingly with the horns and the caulk and the wifes ears and find that 2 to three boxes is enough for a 400 horn, 1 1/2 will do a 600 CW horn in single layer,you dont need to go all the way throat and runon sentences and lack of pucntuation make reading tough as does spelling and when your mind goes numb you can just stop readingokay okay. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 If the horns are tight and secure in the enclosure I highly doubt you will EVER hear any ringing at all. Unless you listen at 120db where the energy is such that there may be a nano-second acoustic reaction if the music were to suddenly stop while being played at that level. The Cornwall horn is much smaller and very robust just make sure it is secured tightly to the motorboard. The caulk is not going to make any difference other making it look ugly and cheap. If those of you with K-400's are so concerned about the ringing that you will never hear just order two K-401K's Composite Horns from Klipsch for $100, then sell your metal ones on eBay for $200 and pocket $100. Be sure to replace the internal rubber/nylon gaskets as well to ensure a good tight seal. If that is not good enough for you look into Al's Trachorn 400 option which is super sweet and can be setup as a quick drop in replacement for your K-400/K-401. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Yeah well see, I have **composite** horns, (CWII's) that I caulked...and what I heard was not necessarily "ringing" it was more of a buzz. I don't know if it was a sympathetic vibration or what, but I do know that I could tell a difference immediately. The caulked horn (mid) was much clearer and there was just a lack of noise with the caulking. I put the stuff on my tweeter too, and while I could not hear as much of a difference, I am convinced that the tweeter is not as "bright" either, which I would equate to getting rid of more of the nasty "buzzing". Horns secure to motorboard too, thanks. I think something changed, and for the better. If you haven't heard it, you can't say. I have, at length, with my Corns, in my room, with my set-up and that is just my lowly opinion. I would be more than happy to demonstrate. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 If the horns are tight and secure in the enclosure I highly doubt you will EVER hear any ringing at all. Unless you listen at 120db where the energy is such that there may be a nano-second acoustic reaction if the music were to suddenly stop while being played at that level. The Cornwall horn is much smaller and very robust just make sure it is secured tightly to the motorboard. The caulk is not going to make any difference other making it look ugly and cheap. If those of you with K-400's are so concerned about the ringing that you will never hear just order two K-401K's Composite Horns from Klipsch for $100, then sell your metal ones on eBay for $200 and pocket $100. Be sure to replace the internal rubber/nylon gaskets as well to ensure a good tight seal. If that is not good enough for you look into Al's Trachorn 400 option which is super sweet and can be setup as a quick drop in replacement for your K-400/K-401. Frzninvt, I normally agree with almost all your posts but on this one I don't know. Have you ever removed one of the cast horns? If you did I know you would realize very quickly how badly they ring. Tap the side with anything and they sound like a bell. Once you wrap with caulk the ring is gone. Simple A vs.B test. I think you would agree that if the horn rings with a slight tap what is it doing at high volume? The answer: coloring the overall sound. If anyone on the forum doubts this try it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 The composite horns in CWII are not ribbed/reinforced like the K-401K and the material is much thinner than the cast K-600 so yes in your particular case you may have been picking up resonances especially since there is "0" insulation in the CWII enclosure. That cabinet needs some level of insulation in it like the older Corns, and the crossover network looks like it was cobbled together by Playschool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Sure, the horn will ring when it is not attatched to anything. Bolt or screw it to the motorboard securely, screw on the driver and then do the tap test. You will find that it still rings, but with a lot less amplitude, than if it was not bolted to anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Sure, the horn will ring when it is not attached to anything. Bolt or screw it to the motorboard securely, screw on the driver and then do the tap test. You will find that it still rings, but with a lot less amplitude, than if it was not bolted to anything. My only point is that the thing does ring. If it rings then there is a chance of coloration. In particular I am talking about the Khorn. The reason this thread has gone so far a rye is the picture of the house sealing foam blown into the speaker cabinet. I think we all agree that a non resonating horn is better than one that has the chance to ring. If you want to blow chunks then blow by all means. Frzninvt: Playschool. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I checked my horns before the rope caulk and did only one at first to see if there was a noticable difference. With the K400's securly attached to the motor boards in my LSI's, I could thump them with a fingernail and hear a distinct ringing. This was at considerably lower than 120db. Once I rope caulked one and reinstalled, the difference was quite noticable. The thunk test gave a very dull 'thud' when struck on the caulked unit versus the slight metallic ring on the uncaulked. There is a distinct difference at mid to high volume levels, not so much at lower levels. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Of course, with the plastic horns, mine didn't ring when you thumped them, but I suspect the same effect was happening with them as was yours Colter...and I agree that the difference was heard at moderate to higher levels on my Corns - BY the way, when we get an e-mail that someone has responded to the thread, when we click on the thread URL in the e-mail, why doesn;t it take us directly to the responsive e-mail, instead of the top of the thread? That is VERY annoying. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyholiday Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 controlled ringing time, controlling ring time with clay is like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube ,solve one problem create another ,ringing is less a problem with newer drivers, but must be faced with vintage units, of course some of the ringing adds color to the music, an may well be part of the recording ambiance, isn't all that bad if it is subsonic to the principle output ,in fact this itinerate "noise" may contribute to the surround sound in 5.1 systems,i wonder still how much of this aural illusion of "clay effect" is from the quasi source an how much is from reverberation, it's very hard to find a vocal recording that reverb, an sweetening has not been added, classical recordings are usually pure but recorded in reverberant spaces ,i would need to see ring time data points & clay effect data points,anyone have some? to be able to formalize a, clay effect- controlled ring time, ratio,clay effect vs controlled ring time = pounds of clay tolerance ,some cornwalls will perish during this doctoral course but that will make us all better docs edit colter the pic is used as an over the top prop on this controlled ring time mod I would like to see the same results from your FOAM job.[:$] If you are so against damping horns why did you do it? I think you just had your feathers ruffled because everyone questioned your process. Come on enough banter.[] clay effect people, play[W] in[W] clay[W], i except this , people are being drawn back to clay, as if it was mammal aquatic behavior, heart an soul into controlled ring time, an criticisms with phalashus philandering frowzy responses as to feathers an foam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Have you ever seen the Dicky Robert movie? Because you must be "Nucking Futs". Your replies are cute and I have to say I have laughed out loud at each. You have sure kept this thread on top. I can't wait to see your next reply[] PS: more pictures pretty please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I wonder if Johny is Romy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I doubt it, Romy seems to have an IQ that is higher than room temperature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyholiday Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 clay effect people ;popularly held delusion that all members of a crowd are unintelligent:it is not that they are unintelligent as such- it is the ability to remain self-aware and think logically, becomes suppressed, the overriding dominance of the crowd belief system, then imposes severe limitations on the quality of data which the crowd recognize as information ,the clay effect people belief system, has been shocked, negative feed back loops, will bring about new belief systems, below i offer an ancient relic of the clay effect people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 time to shut this one down Amy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Michael, I will officially apologize in advance for the inappropriateness of this response! This topic of this entire thread is easily analyzed and addressed.The exact nature of any resonance can be easily measured and graphically displayed via a frequency-time waterfall plot. Resonances are readily apparent due to their persistence in time.Treatments can subsequently be evaluated for their specific results by remeasuring. And one can use a bit of (un)common sense and perhaps a knowledge of material to determine appropriate dampening materials. And if rigid reinforcement is not possible, MASS dampens resonance!But to go back to first principles...Does anyone know at what frequency (ies) there is a verified excessive resonance? Or are we chasing a proverbial problem around based upon our feelings?Quite frankly, I suspect the limited amount of mass that would be added by the suspension of sand in paint would be akin to simply having a rough molded surface. I do no anticipate the additional mass to be substantial enough to have much effect. But we probably wouldn't slip if we stepped on them! Additionally, the mass need not be distributed over the entire surface. Modal analysis** and appropriate application (spot treatment), even if done empirically by trial and error, can also significantly address resonance problems, provided we first identify the problem. Then we can make adjustments and by measuring determine the degree of desired change... Repeating the process as necessary... (Some big words, but simply meaning you can 'spot treat' the problem with mass applied to the correct spot(s)! Gee, and I didn't even use the term "eigenvectors"!)Of course I realize that that may not be exciting enough for many here. My personal favorite dampening material has always been asparagus prepared el dente, perhaps with a creme sauce exhibiting just the a hint of lemon, but I am sure that each will their own preferences! Of course attaching it has its own set of unique considerations! And as we seem to like to run amuck with lots of new and novel ideas, has anyone addressed the effect the color of the paint may have on a resonance that we are not even sure exists nor at what frequencies!?But for those of you who do not share such refined tastes, modelling clay, rigidly attached, would work just fine.[]Of course, if this begins makes sense to anyone, I am sure that there are those out there who will make sure that this does not happen! After all, we do have standards!**The modes can be 'tuned' by simply identifying their location, just as one can do in tuning low fequencing issues in a room with Helmholtz resonators. And hese can easily be identified by trial and error by simply pressing your figer to various horn locations during measuement - provided of course you don't stand so as to interfere with the acoustical measurement! Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to add such caveats!?[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfandbark Posted September 16, 2005 Author Share Posted September 16, 2005 As originator of this thread and reading all the opinions/responses to this point, the conclusion I have reached is this: I'll buy another pair of lenses, slobber the paint/sand mix on them, put the originals in a box, tell my son (he will remember, he likes the Cornwalls) and after I'm dead and gone HE can reinstall the unslobbered lenses for resale purposes. (As if). I do appreciate all the responses. Many differant ways to achieve the same goal. WOOF! P.S. The crossover 'refresh' is magic. All could hear the diff. Thanx BEC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfandbark Posted September 16, 2005 Author Share Posted September 16, 2005 While I'm at it, there just happens to be a pair of lenses on ebay (5807510321). I would appreciate not getting into bid wars with a forum member. WOOF! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 "The exact nature of any resonance can be easily measured and graphically displayed via a frequency-time waterfall plot. Resonances are readily apparent due to their persistence in time. Treatments can subsequently be evaluated for their specific results by remeasuring. The exact nature of any resonance can be easily measured and graphically displayed via a frequency-time waterfall plot. Resonances are readily apparent due to their persistence in time. Treatments can subsequently be evaluated for their specific results by remeasuring." I agree, but most people do not have access to a TEF (like you and I do). The shade-tree mechanic's method is to play some FM inter-station hiss through the mid, and then punch the tape button. If you don't like what you hear, then do something about it! If you don't mind what you hear, you're done. The K400 sounds different than the K401 in this respect. A bit of rope caulk in the throat area really helps the K400. While better stock, I think the K401 needs even more help to sound as good as the treated K400. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.