An alternative to rope caulk and Dynamat?

[Kriton]

Hey, to answer the original question...

I looked for alternatives to rope caulk, and none seemed to have the

advantages of the caulk - I did not consider Dynamat, only because I

could not apply it in the same fashion as rope caulk, and it was more

expensive.

I ahve read Bob Crites signature request not to put the caulk on horns,

because it is a pain to get off, but really, I took all the caulk off

one of my horns and redid it recently and with an exacto knife and a

little time in front of the tube, it cut off easily and came off

relatively cleanly. The mess that is left can be easily wiped up

with some sparing use of goof off, and they clean up slick (just be

aware of the fumes from the cleaner - rot your brain and make you fly

like you have wings).

Now the other statement by Bob that I read about the oil seeping from

the caulk, I just havent found to be accurate, at least for the short

time I have had mine caulked (1 year +). I have had no oil

seepage that I can ascertain so far, but I did take the precaution of

opeing up my cases and wrapping light gauze around the stuff, to keep

it from sagging or deciding to weep. It seems to be that a nice

saran wrap job over the caulk might have a better effect, and won't

disturb the damping properties. (Ooooh and it comes in different colors

for your PC case modders - jk).

For those who say it is all bunkum, I did an extensive a/b caulked and

not caulked (with my wife -pro musician and great ear, as the blind test

subject) and she picked up the differences right away without

prompting...so YMMV.

K

EDITED TO ADD: It is just me or is johnnyholiday completely incomprehensible?

[colterphoto1]

Hey, to answer the original question...

I looked for alternatives to rope caulk, and none seemed to have the advantages of the caulk - I did not consider Dynamat, only because I could not apply it in the same fashion as rope caulk, and it was more expensive.

I ahve read Bob Crites signature request not to put the caulk on horns, because it is a pain to get off, but really, I took all the caulk off one of my horns and redid it recently and with an exacto knife and a little time in front of the tube, it cut off easily and came off relatively cleanly. The mess that is left can be easily wiped up with some sparing use of goof off, and they clean up slick (just be aware of the fumes from the cleaner - rot your brain and make you fly like you have wings).

Now the other statement by Bob that I read about the oil seeping from the caulk, I just havent found to be accurate, at least for the short time I have had mine caulked (1 year +). I have had no oil seepage that I can ascertain so far, but I did take the precaution of opeing up my cases and wrapping light gauze around the stuff, to keep it from sagging or deciding to weep. It seems to be that a nice saran wrap job over the caulk might have a better effect, and won't disturb the damping properties. (Ooooh and it comes in different colors for your PC case modders - jk).

For those who say it is all bunkum, I did an extensive a/b caulked and not caulked (with my wife -pro musician and great ear, as the blind test subject) and she picked up the differences right away without prompting...so YMMV.

K

EDITED TO ADD: It is just me or is johnnyholiday completely incomprehensible?

i agree compleetly with your sound findings acoustically ringingly with the horns and the caulk and the wifes ears and find that 2 to three boxes is enough for a 400 horn, 1 1/2 will do a 600 CW horn in single layer,you dont need to go all the way throat and runon sentences and lack of pucntuation make reading tough as does spelling and when your mind goes numb you can just stop readingokay okay.

Michael

[Frzninvt]

If the horns are tight and secure in the enclosure I highly doubt you will EVER hear any ringing at all. Unless you listen at 120db where the energy is such that there may be a nano-second acoustic reaction if the music were to suddenly stop while being played at that level.

The Cornwall horn is much smaller and very robust just make sure it is secured tightly to the motorboard. The caulk is not going to make any difference other making it look ugly and cheap.

If those of you with K-400's are so concerned about the ringing that you will never hear just order two K-401K's Composite Horns from Klipsch for $100, then sell your metal ones on eBay for $200 and pocket $100. Be sure to replace the internal rubber/nylon gaskets as well to ensure a good tight seal.

If that is not good enough for you look into Al's Trachorn 400 option which is super sweet and can be setup as a quick drop in replacement for your K-400/K-401.

[Kriton]

Yeah well see, I have **composite** horns, (CWII's) that I

caulked...and what I heard was not necessarily "ringing" it was more of

a buzz. I don't know if it was a sympathetic vibration or what,

but I do know that I could tell a difference immediately. The

caulked horn (mid) was much clearer and there was just a lack of noise

with the caulking. I put the stuff on my tweeter too, and while I

could not hear as much of a difference, I am convinced that the tweeter

is not as "bright" either, which I would equate to getting rid of more of the nasty

"buzzing". Horns secure to motorboard too, thanks.

I think something changed, and for the better. If you haven't

heard it, you can't say. I have, at length, with my Corns, in my room, with my set-up and that is just my

lowly opinion. I would be more than happy to demonstrate.

K

[Dylanl]

If the horns are tight and secure in the enclosure I highly doubt you will EVER hear any ringing at all. Unless you listen at 120db where the energy is such that there may be a nano-second acoustic reaction if the music were to suddenly stop while being played at that level.

The Cornwall horn is much smaller and very robust just make sure it is secured tightly to the motorboard. The caulk is not going to make any difference other making it look ugly and cheap.

If those of you with K-400's are so concerned about the ringing that you will never hear just order two K-401K's Composite Horns from Klipsch for $100, then sell your metal ones on eBay for $200 and pocket $100. Be sure to replace the internal rubber/nylon gaskets as well to ensure a good tight seal.

If that is not good enough for you look into Al's Trachorn 400 option which is super sweet and can be setup as a quick drop in replacement for your K-400/K-401.

Frzninvt, I normally agree with almost all your posts but on this one I don't know. Have you ever removed one of the cast horns? If you did I know you would realize very quickly how badly they ring. Tap the side with anything and they sound like a bell. Once you wrap with caulk the ring is gone. Simple A vs.B test.

I think you would agree that if the horn rings with a slight tap what is it doing at high volume? The answer: coloring the overall sound.

If anyone on the forum doubts this try it yourself.

[Frzninvt]

The composite horns in CWII are not ribbed/reinforced like the K-401K and the material is much thinner than the cast K-600 so yes in your particular case you may have been picking up resonances especially since there is "0" insulation in the CWII enclosure. That cabinet needs some level of insulation in it like the older Corns, and the crossover network looks like it was cobbled together by Playschool!

[michael hurd]

Sure, the horn will ring when it is not attatched to anything. Bolt or screw it to the motorboard securely, screw on the driver and then do the tap test. You will find that it still rings, but with a lot less amplitude, than if it was not bolted to anything.

[Dylanl]

Sure, the horn will ring when it is not attached to anything. Bolt or screw it to the motorboard securely, screw on the driver and then do the tap test. You will find that it still rings, but with a lot less amplitude, than if it was not bolted to anything.

My only point is that the thing does ring. If it rings then there is a chance of coloration. In particular I am talking about the Khorn.

The reason this thread has gone so far a rye is the picture of the house sealing foam blown into the speaker cabinet. I think we all agree that a non resonating horn is better than one that has the chance to ring.

If you want to blow chunks then blow by all means.

Frzninvt: Playschool. LOL

[colterphoto1]

I checked my horns before the rope caulk and did only one at first to see if there was a noticable difference. With the K400's securly attached to the motor boards in my LSI's, I could thump them with a fingernail and hear a distinct ringing. This was at considerably lower than 120db.

Once I rope caulked one and reinstalled, the difference was quite noticable. The thunk test gave a very dull 'thud' when struck on the caulked unit versus the slight metallic ring on the uncaulked. There is a distinct difference at mid to high volume levels, not so much at lower levels.

Michael

[Kriton]

Of course, with the plastic horns, mine didn't ring when you thumped

them, but I suspect the same effect was happening with them as was

yours Colter...and I agree that the difference was heard at moderate to

higher levels on my Corns -

BY the way, when we get an e-mail that someone has responded to the

thread, when we click on the thread URL in the e-mail, why doesn;t it

take us directly to the responsive e-mail, instead of the top of the

thread? That is VERY annoying.

K

[johnyholiday]

controlled ringing

time, controlling ring time with clay is like trying to put toothpaste

back in the tube ,solve one problem create another ,ringing is less a

problem with newer drivers, but must be faced with vintage units, of

course some of the ringing adds color to the music, an may well be part

of the recording ambiance, isn't all that bad if it is subsonic to the

principle output ,in fact this itinerate "noise" may contribute to the

surround sound in 5.1 systems,i wonder still how much of this aural

illusion of "clay effect" is from the quasi source an how much is from

reverberation, it's very hard to find a vocal recording that reverb, an

sweetening has not been added, classical recordings are usually pure

but recorded in reverberant spaces ,i would need to see ring time data

points & clay effect data points,anyone have some? to be able to

formalize a, clay effect- controlled ring time, ratio,clay effect vs

controlled ring time = pounds of clay tolerance ,some cornwalls will

perish during this doctoral course but that will make us all better

docs edit colter the pic is used as an over the top prop on

this controlled ring time mod

I

would like to

see the same results from your FOAM job.[:$] If you are so against

damping horns why did you do it? I think you just had your feathers

ruffled because everyone questioned your process. Come on enough

banter.[]

clay effect people, play[W] in[W] clay[W], i except this , people are being

drawn back to clay, as if it was mammal aquatic behavior, heart

an soul into controlled ring time, an criticisms with phalashus philandering frowzy responses as to feathers an foam

[Dylanl]

Have you ever seen the Dicky Robert movie? Because you must be "Nucking Futs".

Your replies are cute and I have to say I have laughed out loud at each. You have sure kept this thread on top.

I can't wait to see your next reply[]

PS: more pictures pretty please

[TBrennan]

I wonder if Johny is Romy.

[djk]

I doubt it, Romy seems to have an IQ that is higher than room temperature.

[johnyholiday]

clay effect people ;popularly held delusion that all members of a

crowd are

unintelligent:it is not that they are unintelligent as such- it is the

ability to remain self-aware and think logically, becomes suppressed,

the

overriding dominance of the crowd belief system, then imposes severe

limitations on the quality of data which the crowd recognize as

information ,the clay effect people belief system, has been shocked,

negative feed back loops, will bring about new belief systems, below i offer an ancient relic of the clay effect people

[colterphoto1]

time to shut this one down Amy.

[dragonfyr]

Michael,

I will officially apologize in advance for the inappropriateness of this response!

This topic of this entire thread is easily analyzed and addressed.

The exact nature of any resonance can be easily measured and graphically displayed via a frequency-time waterfall plot. Resonances are readily apparent due to their persistence in time.

Treatments can subsequently be evaluated for their specific results by remeasuring.

And one can use a bit of (un)common sense and perhaps a knowledge of material to determine appropriate dampening materials. And if rigid reinforcement is not possible, MASS dampens resonance!

But to go back to first principles...Does anyone know at what frequency (ies) there is a verified excessive resonance? Or are we chasing a proverbial problem around based upon our feelings?

Quite frankly, I suspect the limited amount of mass that would be added by the suspension of sand in paint would be akin to simply having a rough molded surface. I do no anticipate the additional mass to be substantial enough to have much effect. But we probably wouldn't slip if we stepped on them!

Additionally, the mass need not be distributed over the entire surface. Modal analysis** and appropriate application (spot treatment), even if done empirically by trial and error, can also significantly address resonance problems, provided we first identify the problem. Then we can make adjustments and by measuring determine the degree of desired change... Repeating the process as necessary... (Some big words, but simply meaning you can 'spot treat' the problem with mass applied to the correct spot(s)! Gee, and I didn't even use the term "eigenvectors"!)

Of course I realize that that may not be exciting enough for many here. My personal favorite dampening material has always been asparagus prepared el dente, perhaps with a creme sauce exhibiting just the a hint of lemon, but I am sure that each will their own preferences! Of course attaching it has its own set of unique considerations! And as we seem to like to run amuck with lots of new and novel ideas, has anyone addressed the effect the color of the paint may have on a resonance that we are not even sure exists nor at what frequencies!?But for those of you who do not share such refined tastes, modelling clay, rigidly attached, would work just fine.[]

Of course, if this begins makes sense to anyone, I am sure that there are those out there who will make sure that this does not happen! After all, we do have standards!

**The modes can be 'tuned' by simply identifying their location, just as one can do in tuning low fequencing issues in a room with Helmholtz resonators. And hese can easily be identified by trial and error by simply pressing your figer to various horn locations during measuement - provided of course you don't stand so as to interfere with the acoustical measurement! Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to add such caveats!?[]

[arfandbark]

As originator of this thread and reading all the opinions/responses to this point, the conclusion I have reached is this:

I'll buy another pair of lenses, slobber the paint/sand mix on them, put the originals in a box, tell my son (he will remember, he likes the Cornwalls) and after I'm dead and gone HE can reinstall the unslobbered lenses for resale purposes. (As if).

I do appreciate all the responses. Many differant ways to achieve the same goal.

WOOF!

P.S. The crossover 'refresh' is magic. All could hear the diff. Thanx BEC.

[arfandbark]

While I'm at it, there just happens to be a pair of lenses on ebay (5807510321).

I would appreciate not getting into bid wars with a forum member.

WOOF!

[djk]

"The exact nature of any resonance can be easily measured and graphically displayed via a frequency-time waterfall plot. Resonances are readily apparent due to their persistence in time.

Treatments can subsequently be evaluated for their specific results by remeasuring.

The exact nature of any resonance can be easily measured and graphically displayed via a frequency-time waterfall plot. Resonances are readily apparent due to their persistence in time.

Treatments can subsequently be evaluated for their specific results by remeasuring."

I agree, but most people do not have access to a TEF (like you and I do).

The shade-tree mechanic's method is to play some FM inter-station hiss through the mid, and then punch the tape button. If you don't like what you hear, then do something about it! If you don't mind what you hear, you're done.

The K400 sounds different than the K401 in this respect. A bit of rope caulk in the throat area really helps the K400. While better stock, I think the K401 needs even more help to sound as good as the treated K400.