Big Velodyne subs. Thinking of going with another line cause I'm not happy

[Fast1]

OK, I need some experience here. I first bought the FSX12 and is sounded clean, but with minimal output so I sold it. I then bought the CHT15 and damn that made me happy for a couple years. Had plenty of go for my system, but not quite as clean as I wanted. I just sold it and bought a used FSR18 which is identical to the HGS18 down to the cabinet and sounds great but again, not enough go to keep up with my reference 7 Klipsches. The FSR makes a weird popping noise that sounds really bad under hard excursions so not sure if we have a problem or that is all I get. I am now wondering if two newer model DLS5000s with the 15" would do me better. I am a fan of big low sound and can't get enough. My room is not that big and the CHT15 was able to knock pictures off walls, but the FSR18 won't.

I am about to jump ship with this huge lack of SPLs just to get a more natural sound. Am I just asking too much of a sub or what? I understand the diffeerences of the sealed and ported boxes, but I need to meet in the middle somewhere and not willing to spend 5k on subs. I can build my own for that.

Your help with the Velodynes or recommendations on other lines will help. Thanks

[SCOOTERDOG]

Why not audition the Klipsch Ultra II subs? From what I have heard from

board members and top reviewers this is one outstanding setup. You

could start with one of them and the amp and add the second one later.

[Fast1]

Well I would really like to reach ultralow and if I remember right, they only dip around 30hz-ish.

[DrWho]

lol, they actually go down to 16Hz with authority (I wanna say about

110dB if I remember correctly). Btw, I got your email and a few

questions come to mind:

-How loud are you playing those RF-7's?!?

-Have you dialed in your sub correctly? (could you describe where

everything is plugged, the equipment, and what settings you've used)

-What is your source material? (what kind of music/movies)

-What are the dimensions of your room and where is your sub located? Can it be moved around at all?

Right now it sounds to me like you have some speaker phase problems in

addition to a poor acoustical environment. You might be amazed at how

drastic the effects of these things can get. The loud clacking you hear

is probably your sub bottoming out...18" drivers tend not to be as high

excursion, though that's because they don't need to be in order to

achieve huge SPL's. But if you have a lot of cancellation you aren't

getting those SPL's and so you're driving the sub harder than it needs

to be driven You were probably over driving your older subs too, but

they were built with more excursion in mind, which means the bottoming

out point is typically impossible to reach (whithout first melting the

voice coil).

Side note: do you have an attic, basement, or adjacent room that could

be used as a huge subwoofer cabinet? (basically a room sealed away from

your stereo room, where you don't mind loud annoying bass). You sound

like the type of guy that won't be satisfied with anything less than an

infinite baffle subwoofer (the cleanest, loudest bass you'll ever

find). With 4 Avalanche 18" drivers ($200 each), you could get 130dB+

with 3200 watts and the speaker will go flat down into the teens (after

room gain).

[Fast1]

Ok I do like to run the 7s hard, but that is why I bought them and they love it. I run the Rotel 1090 on them at 400wpc. The sub is up just a tad from all the way down on the crossover(like 40hz), volume at 3/4, sub filter 15hz so I get all the very low stuff. I found noise with a tough bass CD, but with the 15", no problem just not super clean. Also just when I thought I was going to be happy because it was super sweet with movies, it popped again watching "the incredibles" and I had to turn down a bunch to get under it. That is not going to work. I buy big so I have the head room.

Unlike the 15, I found better bass with phase at 180 out. I am very concerned with the power cord since unit is used and power cord is only 18gauge. I know juice and 18 seems low for an amp that may draw 1500 watts under hard load. I am real close to liking it, but this bottoming thing is not good. I also found much better punch by turning it sideways so the driver pushes against a wall to get a bandpass type configuration. Gotta do what I gotta do. I agree with room problems and this is only a temporary setup. I am also on a sub floor and not in a true corner but if you count the back wall and E center a corner then sure.

[Fast1]

By the way to firm your assumption, The driver seems to move a lot with minimal output. The 15 did not move much. Almost look sloppy. It's trying it's heart out but those 7s are tough.

[MrMcGoo]

I think DrWho may have nailed it as a phase problem. Try varying the subwoofer distance setting to get the phase just right.

I have RF-7s, a big amp (625x2) and an RSW-15. My personal preference is for tight and accurate bass over quantity. Room modes can play hell with bass response. I recently moved my sub so that I was not sitting in a null when the kick drum plays. I could have turned the volume up till the sub blew and I would not have gotten more bass due to the null I was sitting in.

Try listening to the sub's output in different locations. If output is good in other parts of the room, you know it is a room mode problem. Harmon has a free room mode calculator that runs in Excel that may shed some light on the problem.

Bill

[dragonfyr]

I just ...bought a used FSR18 which is identical to the HGS18 down to the cabinet and sounds great but again, not enough go to keep up with my reference 7 Klipsches.

Your help with the Velodynes or recommendations on other lines will help. Thanks

Something is terribly awry here.

Without going into depth, the FSR18 is NOT the same as the HGS18 Series 2 despite its being a precursor! Just as the driver in the Series 2 is not the same as the Series 1, the cone exhibiting a much stiffer composite material then the Series 1 driver. But to maintain that the CHT outperforms it....

And the HGS18 Series 2s WILL keep up with the sensitivity of the LaScalas and KHorns! In fact, short of the DD series, they are the only subs I have found that will do this with sufficiently low distortion. And they outperform the wonderful SVS Ultras as well!

The CHT is an absolute entry level sub. I am absolutely confused by anyone maintaining that the CHT unit outperforms the FSR or HGS or ANY other Velodyne model! (BTW, the CHT MF-HF satellites are excellent units!)

I have run into a similar issue with a friend who was confounded that the unit just would not play loud, as he adjusted everything on the pre- out and on the sub itself! Of course he was absolutely amazed to discover that the remote gain control worked amazing well when he decided to put batteries into it and to adjust the sub's gain! Who would have thunk it!

Obviously something is wrong!

Either that or you should promptly run down and buy several of the CHT units that reputedly out perform the HGS18 (per the original assumption)! As you have most certainly discovered an anomalous lot of over-achieving CHT units![]

[Frzninvt]

You are not using that subwoofer correctly and you have the volume set way to high! That sub should be knocking you against a wall and easily keep up with a single pair of RF-7's. You aren't going to get much audible output with the crossover set at 40Hz either. You are probably listening to newer oversaturated CD's that are recorded at too high a levels. Especially if it is Rap or Hip Hop.

You are hearing clean bass now and it is not as prominent as that 60-80hz Boom, boom, boom bass that you had with the other Velodyne subwoofer.

I have dual HGS-15's and look at the speakers that I have and they easily keep up and generate enough low bass response to move the entire home's frame. My volume on the subs is on like between 3-4 and the gain on the preamp at +2.

You are clearly overdriving it. Get another one or buy a damn SVS B4 if you want enough bass to make you throw up.

[Speedball]

For me, placement is 1/2 the game with setting up a sub. Another Velodyne I drool over is the DD series.

For another brand how about the matching Klipsch RSW 15 or whatever it is with the RF7's. Another brand I own is SVS and it has tremendous output....more than I'll ever need.

[DrWho]

Ok, you still haven't described very well how your subwoofer is hooked up....

So you've got your dvd player hooked up to what? A digital cable

running to some reciever, which is powering all your speakers except

the mains which are powered by the Rotel connected to the pre-outs on

the reciever??? Is the subwoofer connected via the sub-out on the

reciever? Or do you have a completely different setup happening? Have

you set your mains to small? How did you dial in the phase knob on your

subwoofer (does it have one? Im not familiar with your particular

model). We need to know your signal path...step by step every setting

and every cable and what it's plugged into. I really think you have a

setup problem and the more descriptive you get, the better our help

will be.

Btw, changing your power cord isn't going to make any difference at

all. The electricity in your walls runs just fine at 22guage (at least

I think it's 22, been a while since I've checked).

Btw, it's rather difficult to hear frequencies below 40Hz...I would bet

that you have the gain turned up on your sub such that it's as loud as

your mains near 80Hz. A crossover set to 40Hz puts the speaker,

depending on the slope somewhere between 12 and 24dB down at 80Hz...so

if you bring that volume back up to match your mains, you are now

pumping about 18dB of information to your sub at 40Hz! So if you're

watching your movie in the 100dB range, you are asking your sub to put

out 120dB at 20Hz! (which seems about right considering the limitations

of the sub and how loud you like to listen). You also mention a lot of

cone movement which would also correspond to this. Solution: set the

crossover for the sub at 80Hz. If you have a reciever, set the reciever

to 80Hz (THX standard) and then turn the crossover on the sub to as

high as it will go (because the reciever will be taking care of the

crossover for you, you don't want them to overlap). Then set your mains

to small (it reduces FMD cleaning up the midrange, and also reduces

destructive interference that occurs at various frequencies between the

mains and the subwoofer)

[Frzninvt]

DrWho has just provided you with some excellent advice.

[Fast1]

OK, DVD doubles as the CD unit and is a Pioneer Elite. I use optical for DVD to the receiver and Coax for CD so I change which DAC I use. You are right, I run the receiver for now on three channels and the rotel powers the fronts. I have the mains set to large for full range, with the crossover in all the time even with movies. Of course the sub is connected to the sub out on the receiver and I use a Y splitter. I use the Xover with movies because it seems the sub out crosses too high for my taste. It actually blends very well and sounds great, just not enough of it. No I am not saying you can barely hear it, but I expected more. Seems when I raise the over to 80hz, I get too much in the 100-150hz range and is boomy. My 7s can play well to 50-60hz so I would prefer to leave them full range and adjust the sub.

I have never been happy with the midrange punch like a kickdrum. I enjoy a hard hit to the chest, but am left a little lacking. I know most of this is main speaker territory. I will be looking hard at room modes tonight. I am wondering if I had this in a real corner(which is not really possible right now) if we would even be dicussing this.

On the power I think you are mistaken on your 22ga wire in your house. It will only run 5-7 amps. Houses are wired with 12ga on 20amp breakers or 14ga with 15amp breakers. I know I have 12ga going to it so that 18 seems restrictive. I guess I need to better understand how amp power is rated because I see a 1250rms output and assume about a 1500watt input to run it which would require 12ga wire.

Let me know if you need more info on my setup. Phase is 180 degree out and sounds better that zero.

[Fast1]

By the way, I am curious if the SVS that everyone talks about would take care of me. Is it hands down, better than the Velodyne and why? More than anything, I will admit that I like bass and want plenty on the very bottom. I have always wanted multiple drivers, maybe a couple of FSR18s will do the job. I may just bee asking too much for one driver.

[Fast1]

I am very interested in this solfware you talk about. Where can I get it? Is this Harman Kardon you are talking about? Thanks

[DrWho]

Ok, we found your problem []

First of all, don't get caught up in the fact that just because your RF-7's can play well down low that you must have them set to large. The nomenclature implies an inferior speaker which is in fact not the case and getting around this mentality will be the first step in improving system performance. I personally have had mains in the past that can play down to 20Hz and my current Chorus II's can go solid below 40Hz, but I still set them all to small...to avoid technical terms, it will always sound better that way (provided you get the subwoofer dialed in correctly). In fact, you need speakers to dig at least an octave below the crossover point in order to achieve a seamless transition (so an 80Hz crossover needs a speaker that can dig down to 40Hz relatively flat). For what it's worth, I'm using my old mains as subwoofers now (so they work very well as a subwoofer, but you should never require a speaker to perform both duties).

Ok, that said...what you're doing by setting the crossover on your reciever to 80Hz and then setting the crossover on your subwoofer to 40Hz effectively removes all information between 40 and 80Hz (an entire octave of sound). Most of what we consider to be the impact of bass is centered around the 60Hz region (right smack dab in the middle of your hole), which explains why you don't ever feel the punchiness of the bass. When you get rid of the subwoofer crossover, you notice that it sounds boomy...this is where calibration comes into play. I can guarantee that you already have the subwoofer volume too high. To use normal language, the boomy frequencies are the same ones that provide the punch and impact. If your sub volume is too high then it is going to sound boomy, if it is too low it is going to lack punch. There is a spot right smack dab in the middle where you have the punch, without the boominess. Do you have an SPL meter available? This is probably the easiest way to dial in the volume on the subwoofer. If not, then I would suggest turning off the crossover on your subwoofer (turn it up all the way and use the one in the reciever). Then adjust the volume on the subwoofer until the boominess goes away.

After that, you'll probably notice that a lot of music doesn't have much powerful bass...this is because a lot of music actually doesn't have much low bass material recorded onto the CD! I recall a car sub bass CD my bro compiled from songs and tracks available online....he and his friends would oooo and ahhhh about all the bass they had in their cars. Curious about the CD and wanting to show off my home theatre (that measures flat down to 23Hz at over 112dB) - they all laughed when the songs sounded like utter crap. And then I started laughing at them because the source material had nothing below 100Hz!.....I busted out some real music with heavy bass and they all about crapped themselves. They brought the CD with real bass into their cars and it was nothing but a distortion fest. Anyways, all that to say....the better your system gets, the worse crappy recordings sound.

So once you get your sub dialed in to get rid of the boom (without adjusting the crossover), the next step is to use the EQ on your reciever to compensate for bad source material. This is why I inquired as to what specifically you were listening to. The Incredibles does have a lot of low frequency information (mega peaks around 30Hz which would be in the middle of the range your sub is reproducing right now), but it does have a lot of upper bass as well (40-70Hz region). It's hard though to tell when a sub is performing well because you're probably hearing a lot of distortion from the woofer in those segments which is making it seem like you have 50Hz material (what does it matter with an explosion anyway?) But what kind of music are you listening too? I can think of many bands that simply have nothing below 90Hz that greatly benefit from lots of EQ and sloppy subwoofers.

Btw, all movies are recorded in the studio with the mains set to small and an 80Hz crossover to the subwoofer. You can probably choose a lower crossover on the reciever if you are too annoyed with the sub playing higher frequencies (your mains will be able to handle the difference as well). Btw, don't get boominess confused with localizeability...unless you have your subwoofer somewhere on your front wall (I prefer just to the inside of the mains) you are going to be able to tell where it is (unless you crossover really low, which messes up the mix for movies). A lot of people get the two confused, but probably because they sound similar and are both annoying []

Btw, there is no way in the world that your amp is going to continuously draw 1250 watts from the wall (which is a 120volt source). The power supply is dropping the voltage down to about 18 volts, which results in all sorts of available current (power calculations have an I-squared term in them, so doubling current makes the power increase by 4, whereas halving the voltage only halves the power). And then you have all the capacitors in there that take a few seconds to charge when you turn on your amp (basically a reserve bank for when you want to have huge peaks for short periods of time). And then with your subwoofer, you are probably drawing only 1 watt with 91dB of output; so that's 8 watts with 100dB of output.

[Fast1]

Well damn! I think we got it. Per your help and Velodyne, I dropped the volume on the sub which I thought was at 3oclock, but was as 12oclock down to 9-10 and raised the level input from the source unit and raised the xover to 80hz, made my speakers "small" on the source and Walla. I got out of that clipping with better output. I know you will say this is because of the 50-80hz range I boosted. I also have stayed with the "facing the E center" config as it did help with punch. I have not tested movies yet, but I know we are now getting somewhere. I think what was going on was that I had to run the CHT down all the way on the xover because of the weaker xover and FSR drops better at the mark you designate so my tuning error. Not sure of the xover in the source unit, but that will change.

I am now happier, but still need to look at this room and see what I can do to better it and also take a crash course in room treatments.

I will play tonight and let you know.

Anyone know what SPL levels I should see with this unit?

[MrMcGoo]

Brandon,

It sounds like you are using both the receiver's crossover and the subwoofer's crossover. This is called cascading the crossovers and causes a hole in the bass. Only the receiver's crossover should be used. The subwoofer's crossover switch should be set to "bypass" and the dial set on the highest setting.

I catch lots of flack for setting my RF-7s as small, but it is the right thing to do for all of the reasons that DrWho stated.

The white paper on subwoofers and the room mode calculator are found on the Harman International site. H/K is one of their many brands. The room mode calculator and white papers are found here:

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default

Bill

[formica]

Opps... didn't read your last reply before typing... oh well... all the same:

I'd also say something is wrong... whether it's your subwoofer, room

nulls, or setup. I'm not familiar with the details of the velodyne's

technology... but isn't that a servo sub and should be very resistant

to bottoming? Maybe someone here could chime in with more

info. I think you should run some tests to try to pinpoint the

problem.

1) Is you subwoofer defective?

Obviously the easiest way to check this is to swap it out for another

unit. Do you, or someone you know have another one you experiment

with. Set it up in the exact same spot in the same way...

Does it play better even if it a lesser unit?

2) Are you sitting in a room null?

Having a sub in a corner isn't essential, as the peaks and nulls will

vary according to room geometry and placement. Play some pink

noise and walk around the room. Are there spots it sounds

better? If so, you may need to do the infamous "place sub in

seating position and crawl around the room" technique

3) If both of the above are fruitless...

then you probably have a setup problem, where a combination of your

settings is compromising your performance. Experiment with one

factor at the time... and perhaps set everything back to default (80Hz,

phase = 0o, etc...) and restart tuning it one factor at the time.

I have never been happy with the midrange punch

like a kickdrum. I enjoy a hard hit to the chest, but am left a little

lacking. I know most of this is main speaker territory.

Yes, those are about the 120Hz range... so your sub won't fill those in much below 40Hz.

The reason we all feel something isn't right is that it's one thing to

feel you lack just a little more bass... but it's another to bottom the

most powerful sub you've had to date and still not surpass your

previous units capabilities.

Rob

[Fast1]

OK, the verdict is in. The sub operated fine and per Velodyne, the sub is not bottoming (they say is is impossible) the servo is agressively stopping motion on the woofer to protect it because I was over driving it. By dropping the Volume, I lowered the amps ablity to overpower the driver so it now operates within limits. I guess I figured I could drop this new 18 in the place of the old 15 with minimal tuning and I was wrong. I jumped to conclusions after only 1day with the new 18. Before, I would never run the xover on the 15 over the lowest setting because it pushed out fake sounding bass so I concentrated it on areas it work in. Also by running my mains full range and raising the xover on the sub, I have a nasty spike in frequency because of overlap. I now run the mains with the receiver xover set to 80hz though through tuning have found that xover to be pretty weak(probably 6db per octave) because a 10hz signal still plays (tries) on the mains. I am sure however that we are doing some good here and I may try raising the xover on the mains to 100hz just to test it.

All in all the 18 barks with very accurate lows and I guess by running the sub very low on the xover, I was trying to make it undetectable by ear. I guess I enjoy very aggressive lows so I may buy another 18 later and run it very low on the xover so I can really pump that 15-25hz range.

Question: can the SLP meter give valuable data at different frequencies to adjust settings for a flat response or will I need more equipment? Trying to better understand room spikes vs system tuning.