Did I miss something?

[maxg]

I dont know how relevent this is going to be, nor if it has any bearing as it is purely hearsay evidence but I found that with my Heresy 2 speakers the bass response varied hugely with amplification.

In my room, using the Accuphase E211 SS amp (90 wpc into 8 ohm load) my Heresies bottomed out at around 62 Hz (using a DVD test disk with a sweep function from 20 KHz down to 20 Hz.

Using the exact same disk and setup on a pair of monoblock 45 wpc KT88 based amps the same test yielded down to 47 Hz.

Now I should state for the record that I was not measuring down to -3 Hz. I was measuring audibility. At 47 Hz I could hear something and at less than that absolutely nothing from the woofers - it was like an iron curtain on the sound. This also applies to the accuphase - with volume levels balanced at 1 KHz (i.e. both amps reading the same volume on a Ratshack meter at a constant 1 KHz).

With the speakers I currently run (homebuilt) the result is very different. I get audible sound down to about 25 Hz - but we are talking -20 or so dB. They are fairly flat down to about 50, there is a 6 dB drop at 45 and then back up at 40 to -4dB. I have no idea why that spot is happening - near as I can figure it the room should resonate higher than this - but 45 is a hole in the sound.

I should also add that when I ran the Heresies (but not during the test) I ran them in conjunction with a Rel Strata 3 sub. This did yield results down to 21 Hz (as low as the test DVD went) but not flat results. Funnily enough that same 45 Hz flat spot was apparent (which made me think it was the room at play).

As a final note - on the subject of records - I have a number of FFSS recordings from both DECCA and London. On some of these it boasts "the full audible range on the record - from 30 Hz to 14 KHz!!!"

Seems like our definition of audible range has changed somewhat.

Actually that might be 16 KHz - I will have to check - but it is certainly way less than the 20 KHz we hear (about) today.

[edwinr]

woh, I'm not riduling lascala owners....they just like to go around proclaiming ultimate bass response when it's just not there. If your source material doesn't require it then that's fine, but it's not sufficient for everyone

I agree that it's silly suggesting the La Scalas are the ultimate in their ability to reproduce really low bass. Few reasonably priced speakers can without making too many sacrifices in other areas. But the La Scalas CAN reproduce bass, and I suggest, more than the specs give credit for. However, I reckon any loudspeaker can benefit from a very good subwoofer. If you dial in the sub so that you can just hear it, then back it off a tad more, the results can be quite stunning with music. Everything opens up and with care, a sub will never reveal it's there - except when you switch it out.

Edit: Rick, it's interesting you made that comment about subs. My findings have been the exact opposite. Originally my only experience with subs was home theatre orientated. But recently I've been evaluating the impact of a good sub on the La Scala's ability to reproduce very low bass. Cheap subs just muddy the sound. The better subs seem to offer the ability to integrate much more seamlessly. We can't get the RSW-15's here. I've tried my brother's M&K 150THX recently. I also tried a REL Strata. The REL was much more musical but didn't have the M&K's ability to kick butt.

[maxg]

Ed,

The REL is about the only sub I know designed to be used first and foremost for music. From all acounts I have heard it is NOT a suitable sub for groundshaking home cinema effects. For me this was not an issue as it was for music that I wanted it.

It also happens to be about the fastest sub out there. In my searches, admittedly some years ago, I found it to be the only sub that could keep up with the sealed woofer of the Heresy. I think it no accident that the REL's design happens to be both sealed and using a smallish, 10 inch woofer.

It would also probably explain why the REL's typcial recommended installation is somewhat different from more normal sub installs. The speaker level connection (Low level in their speak I think) is recommended thereby bypassing the LFE functions on suround sound amps and the like.

When I installed mine it was with the crossover set to a roll off point of 42 Hz. Fitted in very nicely with my observed 47 Hz bottom of the Heresy.

Sadly - I could never get it to dial in with my own speakers so it has now gone.

[NOSValves]

Craig - So what would the 'real-world' low-frequency response of a LaScala be with the benefits of placement?

In my Shop I have measured them flat to 40Hz but in all fairness this is a extreme placement situation that would be hard to duplicate in most listening rooms. My Lascalas are not just in a corner there in a 3 sided cubby hole. My 8 foot work bench is built between the 2 speaker using Kitchen cupboards that are about 8" from the back cement wall the top of the bench runs all the way back to this wall. This creates a type of port for bass production and it works very well!

My upstairs Lascala are dead in the corners point at the outside of my ears in the sweet spot while they don't go as deep as my shop system they still go plenty deep enough for me and anyone else that stops by and listens. Most of the first comments I get is man the bass is excellent! People that have read the ridicules comments on this forum are befuddled.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Someone has to show me where anyone said the Lascala is the ultimate low bass producer? It sure has heck wasn't me I simply pointed out the 53hz is a figure taken in or near the center of the sound chamber and is completely worthless in the real world. Of course Khorns properly jammed in a corner have lower bass response but this has its disadvantages also in fact I find Khorn bass to be slightly boomy and distorted compared to the Lascala but my ears are use too the ultra tight clean bass of the Lascala. I would love to blend in some sub woofers that would seamless fit into the Lascala equation I think if these optimal subs were available pulling the Lascala out of the corner for better depth of field/sound staging would be the perfect setup. I was hoping to find that last year at the Pilgrimage but I couldn't seem to get those Klipsch employees to keep there mitts of the level control on the Ultra THX subs at the mixer long enough to see if they fit the bill. I believe they think if the subs aren't shaking the room something isn't right! Too much home theater emphasis at Klipsch would be my guess.

Craig

[DrWho]

3Dzapper, you got links to those posts? I would like to read them...

Keep in mind that if the speaker measurements are all done

anechoically, then it is but a simple process to figure out the

pressure loading effects from corner placement. I've got a chart laying

around here somewhere...at most you're looking at +12dB at 20Hz, so you

can calculate backwards (I believe it comes to about +3dB @ 40Hz, I

forget...it's going to be room dependant anyway).

The anechoic chamber at the klipsch facility is only good down to about

80Hz if I remember correctly...or maybe it was 60Hz? In other words,

you are still getting some pressure loading effects from the room in

that chamber, especially considering its relatively small volume in

comparison to a typical listening environment. That's why klipsch takes

their speakers outside to do low frequency testing (they even have a

room corner setup out there for the khorn).

Keep in mind that if the measurements done are all anechoic, then the

bass extension on the cornwall exceeds its specs too. I have measured

the cornwalls in my current listening environment and would have to say

that the 40Hz corner is the same (corner loaded in my apartment). And

before we go blaiming the acoustics of my room, my subwoofers

positioned in the same location are flat in the 30-40Hz range.

Nevertheless, I feel the cornwall has far superior bass than either the

khorn or lascala. I am curious how many have gotten to do a straight up

level matched AB comparison too...the difference is night and day.

And though I am not a proponent of choosing favorable distortions, we

have to remind ourselves that our music is being produced in a studio

that is using a direct radiating subwoofer. There are certain

distortions inherant to every horn loaded woofer and every direct

radiating woofer. When the music is being made these distortions become

part of the music (yet aren't stored in the medium)...and I would argue

the sound of a direct radiating bass system is far far far more

enjoyable to listen to. Ever hear a bass guitar rig hooked up to a pair

of hornloaded bass bins? It sounds like crap (wasn't there even a story

or something about PWK bringing some lascalas into the studio to hook

up to a bass guitar player and he stormed out in frustration because it

sounded bad? Maybe it was a pair of khorns, I forget).

I'm off at school now but I used to spends many hours every week mixing

for bands (both practices and performances). I am very intune with the

live sound and I don't appreciate the few people implying that my youth

has anything to do with how I hear. I hate rap, most techno and country

music....I listen to only rock, some new age stuff, and classical

music. Perhaps I should also mention that I have done a lot of mixing

with professional opera singers, professional orchestral musicians and

spend hours every week working with their sound too. I hate boomy,

exagerated, "slow", unnatural bass and I feel I have every right to

claim that I know what the real deal sounds like. If anything, my young undamaged ears give me an advantage!

Btw, if your source is a turntable then I can see how you don't like a

subwoofer. Turntables get gradually more monophone as the frequency

gets lower and I would claim that storing 30Hz material accurately on a

turntable is a huge stretch. I'm not saying turntables sound bad, but

there are limits to the medium. Trying to expand the frequency range of

your system to play notes below 30Hz is just going to sound bad if

you're using a turntable because who knows what kind of information is

being stored down there. Though my system certainly isn't flat down to

16Hz, I do have some source material that digs down that low and you

can just barely notice that the sound is there whe the subwoofers are

turned on. But you turn off the subwoofers and the entire song loses

its impact. On one occasion I got to experience a system using true

stereo subwoofers and the experience was amazing. I know many probably

think I'm crazy or something so I will defer to the experiences of

Horn-Ed who is completely obsessed with the effect and describes it

better than I can. There is a lot of psychology going on with the lower

frequencies that is vital to the sound of the music. Heck, have you

ever brought an RTA with you to the symphony? You'll measure

frequencies as low as 12Hz, yet no instrument there produces a

fundamental note at that frequency....I would argue that it has a huge

impact on the realness of the experience (and yes, I'm sure there was a

lot of error considering the mic being used) []

I have always felt that the lascala sounded like a really nice PA

speaker...and this was before I learned that it was the intended

purpose!

I would also be interested to some comparison opinions between the

lascala and the chorus II. I feel the chorus has a far superior

midrange than the cornwalls (which many feel is the lacking part of the

cornwalls). The chorus bass is also "tighter" - so I'm sure the lascala

fans would love that...I still feel a need to have a subwoofer

though....so much of the music I listen to digs down to 20Hz and it

makes such a huge difference when the subwoofer is turned on...or

perhaps I should say it makes such a huge difference when the subwoofer

is turned off...because you can't really tell that it's been turned on.

Btw, crossing over a pair of lascalas to a subwoofer crossed over at

40Hz would probably sound akward considering that the slope of the

natrual cutoff for the lascalas probably doesn't match that of the

subwoofer. Also, you need to set the phase on the subwoofer for maximum

output with its crossover set as high as possible...or even better,

reverse the polarity on the mains and adjust the crossover for minimum

output (switching back the polarity and readjusting the crossover after

you finish of course). The reason I say this is because setting the

phase for max

output with a 40Hz crossover can easily result in adjusting the phase

for more output at say a more audbile 80Hz...basically resulting

in an incorrect transition between the mains.

The subs at Roger's home theatre are very well dialed in and make those

lascalas sound really very good. But I bet the second he turns the

subwoofers off those lascalas turn back into the earpiercing speakers I

know lascalas as [] Btw, I'm surprised that I was one of the only

people complaining about the insane volume at the mixer before the

pilgrimage...I'm glad colter wanted to leave early (he was my ride)

because we were already pinned to the back of the room, getting really

fatigued (even from that far away). I can't imagine how loud it was up front.

[NOSValves]

The subs at Roger's home theatre are very well dialed in and make those lascalas sound really very good. But I bet the second he turns the subwoofers off those lascalas turn back into the earpiercing speakers I know lascalas as [] Btw, I'm surprised that I was one of the only people complaining about the insane volume at the mixer before the pilgrimage...I'm glad colter wanted to leave early (he was my ride) because we were already pinned to the back of the room, getting really fatigued (even from that far away). I can't imagine how loud it was up front.

That wouldn't surprise me a bit and nothing against Roger or his system but I'm pretty sure I know what type of amps Roger is running in his HT system and I agree its probably piercing as hell without a subwoofers. But then your talking home thearter here and I believe this is 2 channel land different world amps and setups.

Craig

[3dzapper]

"Nevertheless, I feel the cornwall has far superior bass than either the khorn or lascala. I am curious how many have gotten to do a straight up level matched AB comparison too...the difference is night and day."

No question there. Cornwalls loose to properly set up Khorns every time. Compared to my Khorns, the ornwalls had no bass with the same amps. (no tone controls)

. "Ever hear a bass guitar rig hooked up to a pair of hornloaded bass bins? It sounds like crap (wasn't there even a story or something about PWK bringing some lascalas into the studio to hook up to a bass guitar player and he stormed out in frustration because it sounded bad? Maybe it was a pair of khorns, I forget)."

Again true. However in our homes, we are reproducing not making music. Distortion from amps to speakers is an integral part of a group's "sound".

"Btw, if your source is a turntable then I can see how you don't like a subwoofer."

My sources run between the TT, CD, SACD and digital cable.

"But you turn off the subwoofers and the entire song loses its impact. On one occasion I got to experience a system using true stereo subwoofers and the experience was amazing. "

I believe you are absolutely correct here. The effect would be much better with stereo subs.

"Btw, crossing over a pair of lascalas to a subwoofer crossed over at 40Hz would probably sound akward considering that the slope of the natrual cutoff for the lascalas probably doesn't match that of the subwoofer. Also, you need to set the phase on the subwoofer for maximum output with its crossover set as high as possible"

I did it that way then dialed the low cut-off to the lower limit.

I won't argue with you about subs in HT applications. The FX can be literally breath taking with a good explosion.

If you are ever in the northeast, stop in for a listen Who. You can see for yourself what a properly tuned Khorn/DHT system can do. Maybe your young ears can help me to tune it even better.-)

Rick

[DrWho]

. "Ever hear a bass guitar rig hooked up to a

pair of hornloaded bass bins? It sounds like crap (wasn't there even a

story or something about PWK bringing some lascalas into the studio to

hook up to a bass guitar player and he stormed out in frustration

because it sounded bad? Maybe it was a pair of khorns, I forget)."

Again

true. However in our homes, we are reproducing not making music.

Distortion from amps to speakers is an integral part of a group's

"sound".

aye, but the sound guy in the studio is adjusting the sound of the

music when monitoring with his direct radiating subwoofer. So the sound

is going to be dialed in based on how the subwoofer sounds. It's the

whole process of translating the mix...if your sub is too loud, then

the recording has too little bass (and vice versa). The sub is going to

introduce its own kind of distortion, so the recording is going to be

lacking it...but when played back on a direct radiator, the distortions

come back and the end user doesn't know the difference. Play back with

a horn loaded sub and it sounds tubby.

"Btw, crossing over a pair of lascalas to a subwoofer crossed over at

40Hz would probably sound akward considering that the slope of the

natrual cutoff for the lascalas probably doesn't match that of the

subwoofer. Also, you need to set the phase on the subwoofer for maximum

output with its crossover set as high as possible"

I did it that way then dialed the low cut-off to the lower limit.

I won't argue with you about subs in HT applications. The FX can be literally breath taking with a good explosion.

If

you are ever in the northeast, stop in for a listen Who. You can see

for yourself what a properly tuned Khorn/DHT system can do. Maybe your

young ears can help me to tune it even better.-)

Well I don't think I'll ever be headed that way, but I'll be sure to

look you up if I do. In fact, Dean offered up a demo of his system to

prove to me the khorns really aren't tubby....we'll just have to see if

this is the case [] In fact, I would be most interested to hear a

non-screachy lascala-only setup. It's not like I want the bloody thing

to be bad sounding (and after hearing Roger's setup I am thinking

lascalas all around might be better than khorns all around....the

question is does 2-channel listening cut it). I don't think it exists

but I always try to be as open-minded as possible (when

listening...just not on the forums of course) []

Just curious what particular amps are acceptable for use with

lascalas....I guess that's another thing going for the cornwalls...they

make anything sound good.

[AnalOg]

Dr. Who

I'm located about 30 minutes north of you, lets hook up, come over with your favorite material, and give me your input on what you hear.

Tom

[DrWho]

I'm actually down in urbana champaign right now, but will be coming

home for a week and two weekends due to thanksgiving break...drop me a

PM with your contact info and let's work something out.

Be for warned, I listen to some crazy stuff...[]

[3dzapper]

."the question is does 2-channel listening cut it). I don't think it exists but I always try to be as open-minded as possible (when listening...just not on the forums of course) '

To us dynasours that's all there is.[]

"Just curious what particular amps are acceptable for use with lascalas....I guess that's another thing going for the cornwalls...they make anything sound good."

PaulN sure seems to love his 2004s with his 2A3 SET Wrights.

Wait til you hear Michaels when he finally gets a round tuit and rebuilds the networks in his Corns.[<)]

Older than that, they need ALK networks and a little taming in the mids. I only have one LaScala and it is ALK equipped. I haven't commented about it much as it is used as a test mule in my "lab". Some of my doings in the lab are not fit to discuss. They may be alive but sound like voodoo dodo do do.[6]

HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!!!!

Rick

[TBrennan]

People measuring below 50hz with LaScalas need to shut their furnace off while measuring, I had this problem when measuring Peavey FH-1s, I thought they were flat down to 30 which couldn't be true (and they didn't sound like they went that deep). Then I turned off the furnace and they rolled of at 50hz, this placed tight into basement corners. I can't see a LS going lower, or as low actually, as an FH-1, a larger and better built horn.

The LaScala has problems and they're not all related to lack of deep bass though that's the worst problem. Note the number of posters here who go to great lengths to solve the problems; using subs, different drivers and horns, different networks and tweeters. Some people like LSs and some don't, like with any speaker.

My FH-1s used K-33 woofs, I suppose I could call them LaScalas modified with Peavey basshorns and Altec treble.

[DrWho]

woh, when did you get those speakers? Or you still using the altecs?

Btw, I still have that digital amp you let me borrow...only listened to

it once so far.

[TBrennan]

Doc---That rig is from a few years ago, all that stuff is gone now. I sold the Peavey basshorns to the famous "Magnetar" in Ohio. The basshorns were nice, the previous owner had added an extra 3/8" mdf and veneer to the outer walls, they were very "dead". Note too the shelf braces Peavey used to stiffen the horn. The horns also had reflectors in the corners to aid high frequencies around the corners.

[ben.]

I hate rap, most techno and country music....I listen to only rock, some new age stuff, and classical music.

I'm not sure if you're bragging or sheepishly admitting something... perhaps both, or all three.

Seriously though, I'm wondering if you've ever heard a band from Carbondale- The Rum Runners. Pretty good live band.

[edwinr]

....the question is does 2-channel listening cut it... Just curious what particular amps are acceptable for use with lascalas....

A properly set up, 2 channel system can be holographic in presentation. It can be so good you wonder why bother with multi channel. At the moment my system is 2 channel for both home theatre and music. That's not to say multi channel isn't any good. I reckon I'll move to multi channel again, and very soon. But this time I'll do it right. I'll get the 2 channel as good as I can. My intention is to then introduce a multi channel capability to compliment my 2 channel system. So that I can switch it in and out at leisure.

Now, with regard to LaScala and suitable amplifiers, the most fool proof amplifier match for not much money, is the NAD 320BEE. A little stereo integrated with around 50 watts per channel.

It's a very quiet little amp and sounds smooth and grain free. In fact I'd go so far as to recommend this amp over low cost tube amps of Chinese origin like the Jolida 102a. If you must buy low cost tube, then I suggest a refurbished classic. Some of these cheap Chinese jobs are diabolical, with woeful build quality.