K-33 Specs? What's better?

[DizRotus]

Can someone provide, or point me to, the specifications for the K-33E? Im sure this has been addressed many times, but my use of the Search function failed to produce the desired results.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Many here feel that Klipsch products are already audio perfection and that what was good enough for PWK should be good enough for the rest of us. In their stock form, Klipsch Heritage speakers are already better than most other commercially available products, but compromises were made that hobbyists need not make.

In addition to being an audio genius, PWK seems to have been an astute businessman. For example, an audio purist would have routed the front baffle boards of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Cornwall, etc. to mount the horns flush. Instead, PWK cut holes and screwed the lenses to the backs so that the horns mouths fired through 1/2" plywood windows. The purist would have gone broke years ago. He did it because tests proved to him that, It doesnt make a dimes worth of difference. His frequent use of that dime phrase suggests that many decisions were cost based (as they should be in a business) rather than intended to achieve audio perfection. He said the same thing about the 18 gauge zip cord used inside Klipsch speakers.

The fact that Klipsch uses the same woofer (correct me if thats incorrect) in Cornwall (ported), La Scala (truncated folded horn) and Klipschorn (longer folded horn) seems to be more a nod to cost control and production simplification, than an optimization for each application. If my assumption is correct, it seems that many other drivers would have better specifications for each application. Intuitively, it seems that the best woofer for a Cornwall would not be the best woofer for a La Scala, Klipschorn, etc.

I can accept the reality that normal humans might not be able to detect differences between the optimal driver and a K-33 in any of the subject enclosures. That said, if a better suited driver is available, Id like to know so that I can decide if I want to use it.

As hobbyists, especially DIY types, we have an opportunity to avoid some of the compromises that were made by Klipsch to simplify production and maximize margin. A dime of difference, when multiplied by thousands, could have made the difference between profit and loss. Dollars of difference should not deter the hobbyists who are investing considerable time and money to improve their systems.

[Jay L]

k-33 specs

nomZ 4 qms 8.5 fo 27.99 cms 305 uM/N

re 3.5 qes .684 vas .3430cuM mms 106 grams

le 1mH qts .633 BL 9.77tm pmx 100W

spl 92.3db sd .089sqM xmax 4mm<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[DrWho]

I have heard many people trying out different drivers in the lascala

and khorn and have always

come back to the K-33. As far as the cornwall, I've modelled it in

winISD and again it is a good driver for the application. However I

think I would slightly change the cabinet volume and tuning of the

cornwall to get a flatter response. At $150 per driver you would be

very

very hard pressed to find better bang for the buck (and isn't that what

DIY is all about?)

Btw, if you have winISD I can send you my K33 file.

Can a better driver exist? most certainly, but at what cost.

[jwc]

If you are searching for another/better driver, what are you going to do with it. Hard to make a suggstion w/o it.

If nobody posts the specs you need, I have about three sets I can send you tonight.

jc

[DizRotus]

I have winISD. If you would send the file to me at nkdisney@comcast.net I would be grateful.

I accept the fact that, at $129 each, the K33 is a bargain and not much of a compromise. Nevertheless, I still want the specifications.

See the "Four abused La Scalas . . ." thread in the General Questions Forum. one of the two that I will soon acquire to then provide to a high school band, apparently, has a new Eminence Gamma 8 ohm replacement woofer. I've already ordered a K33 to substitute for the Gamma, but I'd like to have the K33 specs for future reference. I'm curious about the differences between the Gamma and the K33. Since I have an opportunity to A/B the two, I'd like to know the differences, at least on paper.

[DizRotus]

k-33 specs

nomZ 4 qms 8.5 fo 27.99 cms 305 uM/N

re 3.5 qes .684 vas .3430cuM mms 106 grams

le 1mH qts .633 BL 9.77tm pmx 100W

spl 92.3db sd .089sqM xmax 4mm<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Thank you. At first I thought your sense of humor was way too subtle, even for me.

[colterphoto1]

I have heard stories that the Cornwall was subjected to many tests available at it's time, that the woofer ports were adjusted in tiny increments until they had it right for the K33. That being said, after the Theil-Small parameters were finished years later, the CW proved to be off by only like 3% or so, so PWK and company did a very good job of matching the cabinet to the woofer in that particular case.

Don't know about the other boxes.

Michael

[DizRotus]

If you are searching for another/better driver, what are you going to do with it. Hard to make a suggstion w/o it.

If nobody posts the specs you need, I have about three sets I can send you tonight.

jc

The subject of the post, ". . . What's better?", was not intended to request a specific suggestion for a specific custom application. Implicit in the post was the assumption that the K33 is a compromise in each of its stock Klipsch applications and that something might be better for each.

Again, I acknowledge that the K33 is a bargain such that looking further with respect to otherwise stock Klipsch applications makes little sense or no cents.

[jwc]

I would agree with your statement that there would seem to be a compromise using a K33 in severeal applications.

I personally think the K33 went through some changes long after the cornwall production stopped. The K33 may be more of a better horn driver. Not sure.

When running WinISD, the K33 begs for a larger vented cabinet to get a flat response.

I recently Posted on some thread what several different Eminence woofers would do in the Cornwall cabinet.

[DizRotus]

You're probably correct about the current K33 not being the same as that used in the Cornwall.

Does anyone know how many versions (if more than one) of the K33 were used in the various Klipsch applications? If there were multiple versions, it would be useful to know the specifications of the various versions.

[3dzapper]

I thought that this quote from Dr Bruce Edgar fits the K-33 very well:

:I did the 70-Hertz Tractrix corner horn, using a 6-inch Pyle loudspeaker. I had just read an article by Don Keele that gave the requirements for horn drivers. It was the first paper I'd seen which talked about what criteria drivers must have to power a bass horn. You can get a reprint of it from the Audio Engineering Society [D. B. Keele, "Horn Design Using Thiele-Small Parameters." AES Reprint #1250, 1977]. He essentially said that you have to have a very large magnet and a very light paper cone, which says you have a very low-Qes driver. You can predict the top frequency where the horn response is going to roll off, which is called a mass rolloff. Essentially, the ideal horn driver is a mass-less piston, and when the mass reactance is equal to the acoustical throat resistance of a horn, the horn response rolls off. You can calculate the mass rolloff for any driver, and that's twice the resonant frequency divided by Qes. You can go through the driver catalogs and pick out drivers that will work on horns. The problem is that you discover that most woofers have mass rolloffs on the order of 200 Hertz. It turns out that there is a figure of merit for loudspeakers, which is fs/Qes, which is half of the mass rolloff number. Using that number, you can decide which woofers are good for bass reflex, which drivers are good for sealed box enclosures, and which are good for horns. Well, a sealed box enclosure wants an fs/Qes ratio of about 50, and a bass reflex box wants an fs/Qes ratio of about 100."

To read this entire interview:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue4/edgarinterview.htm

Rick

[dragonfyr]

Here is the Keele article

LFHornDesignUsingT-S.pdf

[D-MAN]

Here are the REAL K33E T/S parameters as spec'd by Eminence as posted by Marvel. These are what I used.

{edit} Interestingly, the K33E is NOT a particularily good T/S match to the Khorn using the Keele formulas, although it works quite well in that application. However, you guys would be suprized at what a well-matched driver-to-the-horn difference sounds like. It's quite different but its somewhat like Pandora's Box (or is a a can of worms?).

DM

********

John,
I emailed Eminence and asked for the T/S parameters for the K33-E, and got this repsonse back from them. Maybe they would send out bogus info, but that wouldn't sem to benefit them very much.

SPEC 15162
PART # K-33

RE OHMS 3.39 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

FS HZ 34.46

LE MH 96

MMS GMS 78.59

QM 7.39 CMS

mm/N .2714

QE .410

RMS NS/M 2.3037

QT .390

VAS LTRS 301.66

XMAX MM 8.20

SD SCM BL TM 11.88

EBP 84.4

EFF % 2.91

SPL dB 96.6

Wattage 150rms

Looks a bit different.

Marvel

[Klipschguy]

Those specs look better. The first specs look like a sealed enclosure woofer.

[D-MAN]

Bob Crites has some actual measurements from various K33's over a span of years which display some distinct changes to the values posted above.

DM

[jwc]

D

Yes Bob does. He send me some of those specs. Interesting enough, the curves plotted on WinISD were pretty much like the current K33. The Fs was lower on those versions but the Qes,Qts and Qms were fairly similar.