So that's what 200 watts sounds like....

[maxg]

Been stuggling a while with my tube amps. There is a constant hum - a buzz really that is just slightly too loud to be ignored.

Anyway SWMBO is off on a shopping trip to London with a friend - and SWMBO Junior is off at her Grandparents (possibly for the whole weekend!!) so I thought it might be a good opportunity to yank the amps and get over to Odyseus Tsakiridis (the guy that made them) for a sort out.

Pulling this amp is no easy task. I keep it hidden behind the TV (which weighs a ton on its supportng wooden box). The amp itself is no flyweight - about 30 lbs for the power supply and another 60 or so for the amp itself.

Without going into too much detail I disconnect all the wires and heave the bugger out and into the car.

It takes about an hour in Athenian rush hour traffic to get to Odyseus' shop - but fortunately he helps out lugging the SOB in. Of course he has no speaker cables to hand (he has lent out both of his pairs) so I have to wait while he makes them.

Eventually he rigs up the amp and powers it up. At my house it takes about 30 seconds for the hum to cut in - we wait 5 minutes. The B*stard is as quiet as the grave. He starts to tell me that it is probably a ground loop hum I am getting. I dont agree but there is not a whole hell of a lot I can say as the amp is making less noise than a dead mouse.

Anyway - i think in desperation - he suggests I leave it with him powered up and he will give it a good checking over. I agree but am keen to pick up something to listen to on this weekend of all weekends.

Amongst the endless piles of amps, bit of amps, and archaic tube testing equipment is a small pile of 3 wooden boxes. Well quite a big pile actually - these boxes are not small. I ask what they are and he frowns. They were an order from a customer - he originally wanted 5 , 2*200 wpc amps into 8 ohms - solid state. I can take one of them if I want to.

(In the end the original customer took only 2 of them and Odyseus got stuck with the other 3.)

Now lets see - I am a tube guy - and these are SS amps. My 70 watt tube amps have more than enough power for my speakers - do I need 200 watts of SS power?

I ask how much?

Answer - he wants rid of them - say $500?

Say what? $500 for 200 watts!! Dont we all love a bargain!!

And yes - if I decide I like them he will trade them in for the Powerhouse I have now. Course the powerhouse was more - but we will revisit the deal if I like, so I take and go home.

There is a lot to like about SS amps. No buggering about - plug in the connectors - flick the switch and there is a sorta bump from the speakers when they are ready - about 20-30 seconds after switch on.

OK music for testing....something not at all designed with this sort of amp in mind....Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto at low volumes. Drop the needle in the groove and stand back. Sounds great - not all that different from my tubes. Maybe a little harder on the top end - more bass for sure (not that there is a lot there to be played) - otherwise fine at my typical listening levels with the other 2 house residents asleep.

Start to pump up the volume. One click of the potentiometer more - sound a bit borderline now - there is a slight harshness to the violin but the orchestra is really filling in. One more click - whamo!!

Now it sounds nothing whatsoever like the tube amp - this is big bold and brassy - and way to hard. The balance feels off - but at the same time there is a really tangible feel to the instruments - its like live but in a poorly chosen venue. Back off the volume one click and normality returns - one more and there is that tube-like sound again.

Hmmmmm.....

Switch genre completely - DSOTM - lots of volume. Bass line is thunderous - actually everything is thunderous. I think I found the resonant frequency of the room - everything is starting to rattle alarmingly and the sound is - well - rather poor really. Why? The Vinyl. I have played this record so many times and never realized quite how much the tubes were hiding from me. Every clip and pop hits like a door - and there is some serious distortion going on somewhere. Back the volume down - distortion still there - fairly sure it is the vinyl - bugger - that wont be easy to replace - Greek copies of DSOTM are now recognised across the country as being amongst the best out there and they are getting as rare as hen's teeth.

Ditch the Floyd and spin up Marvin Gaye - What's Going on? I bought it new on 180 gram vinyl and havent played it that much. It plays....incredibly. Just about the best thing I ever heard and possibly one of the loudest things I ever heard too. I end up listening to the entire record before switching to a knackered copy of Jennifer Warnes Famous Blue raincoat.

Whilst the Floyd was disasterous the Warnes is magic. Yes there are a few clicks - and a lot of obvious hiss between tracks - but when it is playing - OMFG!! All the usualy stuff about things I never heard in the recording before - total clarity - veils lifting - like being there blah blah blah..

Basically - it sounded fan-f*cking-tastic with a capital F (or 2). Listened to the whole album (again).

Switched to a REALLY beaten up copy of Cabaret. The record was wrapped in newspaper for crying out loud and stuffed into its cover by someone with a ax to grind (on the vinyl itself I think). Anyway, noisy - yes - listenable too - very yes - sonically a mixed bag - some things stupendous, some not quite as beguiling as the tubes. Female voices I think have lost something (needs verifying) instruments with "whack" gain hugely.

Final record - an Opus 3 test record called - enticingly - Depth of Field!! Ignore the title and the test element - the music is enjoyable and the recording staggeringly good on the tubes. On here it is - well - better - everywhere. Guess what - listened to the whole thing again.

Anyway - it is now midnight - I got back from Tsakiridis at 8 and been listening ever since.

I think I am going to have to start keeping score here. In many was this amp might suit - it plays relatively warmly and softly at lower volumes which is where 95% of my listening is done but it will rock the wals off their foundations with a turn of the loud dials - and that is handy.

I have no idea what the insides look like - the outside is UGLY - another wooden box from Tsakiridis but this time without the saving grace of some tubes sticking out - just a wooden box marm. Tis quite heavy and like I said - big - not sure where to put it yet - wont fit on, or under, the rack.

Funny thing - there is a second switch next to the main power supply switch at the back of the amp - for a fan!! He told my I should only use it when rocking out at high volumes for parties and such. He is right - it totally destroys the sound the second it comes on - and that is not taking into account the noise it makes on its own (think loud cheap computer fan). I dont think I will ever touch it again - all a bit to pro-audio for me.

Well - that's all for now - no idea whether I am going to keep this or throw it back and take my old tube back - ease of life and safety (for Junior mainly) Vs that beguiling sweetness.

Thinking....

[Duke Spinner]

Tubes vs SS

there is No right ... nor Wrong

sounds like you would love a Crown d 60

[Parrot]

The most likely culprit for your buzzing sound is the TV set, of

course. Assuming you haven't always had this buzzing sound with your

tube amp, can you think of what you have changed?

[edwinr]

Now, Max. I know you guys are a bit slow in your part of the world! But what did you expect when you hooked up an amplifier that was capable of 200 plus watts per channel? A well designed S/S amplifier will take your speakers by the golf balls and make them work for a living. Even a super sensitive Klipsch Heritage speaker will benefit.

Some will say that you will never realise the true potential of your system until you inject a very powerful amplifer into the equation. Of course Duke Spinner and the Parrot have been known to be wrong from time to time. [6]

And that buzzing sound you're referring to... I had that with my Jolida SJ 202a. The damn thing wouldn't stop. On quite passages of music I could just hear a low level buzz. I ripped the amp apart and tightened everything that was capable of being tightend. I tried an isolation table. That was a waste of time. I tried mounting the transformers on rubber grommets - that didn't work. A friend told me the transformers may benefit from a re-lacquer. That was a lot of hassle.

Finally I worked out what the problem was.

It was the power cord. I pulled the power cord out of the wall socket.

That fixed it. No more buzz...

[D-MAN]

There is something to be said about having a large PS available even at low volumes. Dynamic headroom.

At a certain point, it doesn't matter whether its tubes or SS: a good amp of either topology is virtually indestinguishable from the other. That is, if you can "tell" what topology it is, it's not good enough.

P.S. for a fun time, try 300w per channel - great for HT and/or house-wrecking!

DM

[Duke Spinner]

for a Really fun time ......try 500 wpc .... each

[edwinr]

... and you're trying to tell me, Duke, that's what your car stack looks like! Cool.

[D-MAN]

The part that kills me is that 500 watts is only twice as loud as 50 watts!

...and 50 watts is only twice as loud as 5 watts!

DM

[colterphoto1]

Well written and played Max. I myself have never made the sojourn into tubes, but my experiment might read like yours in reverse. I love my SS receivers for knock-yer-sock off sound, but in actuality mainly listen at around 70 db, so tubes might fit my early morning classical and late night jazz routines. SS during the day, with it's loud traffic noise floor still works best for me.

And D-man, I don't worry about that word 'twice'and associated math, louder is louder, headroom is headroom, the rest is just definitions in a book.

Max, keep em both once you get the buzz sorted out. It's probably the direction I'll take in the long run.

Michael

Michael

[JulieHeartKlipsch]

Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah!

Michael row the boat ashore, hallelujah!

Sister help to trim the sail, hallelujah!

Sister help to trim the sail, hallelujah!

[colterphoto1]

huh?

[Parrot]

I like the way your mind works, Julie.

[Woodog]

BS Button's LaScalas and SS amplification have a VERY compelling sound - detailed, smooth and with plenty of muscle in reserve.

Tubes aren't the end-all of amplification, but I like 'em.

Woo

[TheEAR]

"Now it sounds nothing whatsoever like the tube amp - this is big bold and brassy - and way to hard. The balance feels off - but at the same time there is a really tangible feel to the instruments - its like live but in a poorly chosen venue. Back off the volume one click and normality returns - one more and there is that tube-like sound again."

Ahem this sounds like a case of an amp pushed a bit,starting to show its weakness.Like pushed tubes sounding very...warm,these CLIP and people mistake this for tube qualities.

A well designed high end solid state and tube amps of similar output into the load they drive...sound very much the same.The tube will not have the bandwith of the solid state or the bass control.The rolloff makes them sound more...musical to most listeners.The amps with the most impressive specs so fat are from Spectral,their bandwith ,speed is second to none.They are often described as very analitical because of thier extreme transparency.These are my next goal,a pair of monoblock Spectral amps.Solid state bliss

A very powerful solid state will not exibit the description you gave.I drive Contour 3.3's with a FPB600 and I never eeeeeever heard any stress or failing,loss of coherence.Simply the immensly powerful Krell juices them up good.Even the Celeste 4250 is hard,very hard to push into push into any audible loss in sound quality.The speakers and the ears fail before.God knows the 3.3's need an amp with guts,any receiver,including the Denon 5802 I had was too whimpy to make them move,and often I could hear the amp limits at high output levels.

Even this I am impatient to open my Tenor Audio crates and let the 15W monoblocks sing.Music is only music when it relaxes you,after when it gets too loud its noise no matter how expensive and powerful the system is.

Just my two cents

[crazytubepower]

Parrot wrote "I like the way your mind works, Julie."

Complimenting ourselves I see

[maxg]

"Keep em both"

Well Michael I have to say that piece of advice was not entirely unexpected coming from you!!!

Sadly it is not an option. Ths issue is space - and laziness. There is noway to keep both in the living room - and the thought of lugging one or other back and forth is not appealing. Did I mention the size and weight of these beasts? My back is complaining this morning as it is.

Arthur,

First things first - lets not get ahead of ourselves. This is an amp I can pick up for $500 - not an FPB600. I would guess you paid rather more for your amp than the sum mentioned so I would expect it - at the very least to perform a lot more linearly across the spectrum of volume (? - you know what I mean I think) than mine.

Having said that - your basic concept is wrong here - but that is my fault as I was not clear.

On my pre-amp the potentiometers (there is one for each side) have about 20 odd clicks from zero to maximum volume. I was describing the sound at 5 clicks. However non-linear the pre-amp I was nowhere near the full output of the amp at this stage. My normal listening level - with wife and child asleep in the neighbouring rooms - is 3 clicks.

As an additional reference I made mention above of playing the Marvin Gaye "What's going on?" album. That was played - for short periods - rather lounder than the Tchaikovsky - I think I hit 12 clicks at one point - with no sign of distortion whatsoever. I do not think I am pushing the amp at all - the speakers, however, are another matter.

As it happens I am listening to the Violin Concerto again this morning - having left the unit on all night (I do not know if this is a good idea - I will have to check with Odyseas later).

I am coming to the conclusion that SS amps are not quite as plug and play ready as I had thought - either that or I have adjusted to the sound very quickly. It is a lot smoother to my ears today - still hard sonically - but seemingly more livable with.

Clarity is astonishing - but that might be a part of the lack of that buzz I was describing.

Just for reference I continued my playing session right into the small hours culminating with Traviata. I was expecting this to be disappointing but it wasn't. Soprano does not seem to suffer anything like I had expected it to and the image size / soundstage are that much bigger than before (I noticed this same effect once before when I switched from EL34's to 6550 tubes - I am sure this is a simple power issue).

I will continure to play about for the rest of the weekend and report back - for anyone that might be interested - my findings.

FWIW I am currently leaning towards keeping this and taking a break from tubes for a while (well - the pre is tubed so not totally.....yet anyway).

[dubai2000]

Max,

as I am almost off to work (one of those one-day-weekends....yuck) just two short comments.

Yes, I remember that ss gear tends to sound better when running

24/7. So playing a violin concerto right after powering the

unit doesn't show the amp's real potential.

You are still using a tube preamp......so here comes the old question: which amp influences the sound more - pre- or power amp?

I am sure you have listened to the Tchaikovsky live........and I still

believe a violin does not sound like it's presented by the

typical ss amp (okay, I am biased towards tubes []). But

then a listener is usually not as close as the recording mic.

Looking forward to more reports.

Enjoy.

Wolfram

[jt1stcav]

I dunno, Max...aside from the hum issue with your tube amp, it still performs to your liking, does it not? Are you still enjoying the sound of your Powerhouse amp, or are you ready to dive into transistors like you just reported? Do you need the 200 WPC, or can you remain getting by with your valve's power ratings?

Like Wolfram, I think I'm more biased towards tubes as well, only because they're still new to me whereas I've used SS practically all my listening life. But I guess once you've made your adjustments in levels for each recording you are pleased with the SS amp's characteristics overall. And the price is right for sure! So I can see you are in a bit of a situation, especially if you get your old valve Powerhouse back and the hum issue raises its ugly head once again!

If it was up to me, I think I'd keep the tube amp. I assume you may still have issues concerning the sound of the SS amp at certain levels, whereas you may be happier with your Powerhouse with all sorts of music (that's just what I make of your response...I could very well be wrong). I can only hypothesize what you're going through.

Best of luck with whatever decision you make (but the question is can you live with it afterwards?).

[maxg]

Thanks for the concern Jim - I do appreciate it - and Wolfram - I too have been a tubie for the last 5 years so I know where you are coming from.

If you had asked me a week ago if I would have considered a bigass SS amp I think I would have laughed in your face - now I am not so sure.

The amp has now been powered up for the last 24 hours - with each passing hour it gets smoother and cleaner. I spoke this morning (and that was a long time ago - about 14 albums in fact) with Odyseus. He told me to leave the amp switched on 24/7 - when it is not playing it draws minimum current and it is fully fused should anything untoward happen. He also told me that aside from sitting on a shelf for almost 18 months the amp has never actually played other than basic testing - in other words - this is really a new amp. He is not a big believer in run-in for equipment persay - but after such a period of non use he reckons it certainly can't hurt to let it play a whiles yet before deciding.

Well that is the background - the foreground in the music and it is starting to come through in spades. There is definitely something to be said for effortless power - I thought the ultra-linear amp had it - but I was wrong. This one, however, does.

At some point during the day I returned to Floyd and played the Wall - as a record (well 2 actually) it/they are in way better condition that the DSOTM. Playback was flawless - what a kick - phew. Operas have flown past - from the marriage of figaro to Wolfram's favorite (Othelo). Until you have heard these things with a real muscle bound amp you aint heard them.

Yes - some of the finesse has gone - some of the musicality has changed if not deteriorated - but the sheer bodily mass of a large orchestral work is suddenly very much apparent. Strings have, in my opinion, not gained from the swap - although the loss is nothing like it appeared to be last night. Voices have gained and suddenly it is blindingly obvious why a piano is regarded as a precussion instrument whilst a harpsichord is not. The Rach 3 was just so WOW I played it twice running (Yes I know it is not a good idea but I could not help myself).

It is now perfectly clear to me that there is no right or wrong choice here sonically speaking. There are gains on the swings and losses on the roundabouts. Even though I paint myself as a somewhat narrow listener with purely classical tastes that in itself is such a broad canvas to paint either amp has plenty of opportunity to show its paces.

I have a whole Sunday ahead of me tomorrow to listen some more - it is 2 am as I write - and I am not sure I am finished for the day - one more before bed perhaps.

I havent heard a Cello since about midday - I think I will now go and listen to either the Elgar or the Dvorak - whichever comes to hand first.

More reports to follow I suspect.

[jt1stcav]

Max, you're really living up to your signature quote right now, aren't you?[:^)]

Lemme throw this hypothetical question at you...do you at present use a powered subwoofer with your DIY loudspeakers? The reason I ask is since I just added a 100 watt sub to my 8 watt per side 300B playing through my Loth-X monitors, adjusting the sub's crossover to 80Hz, and fine tuning the sub's gain control, my flea-powered SET amp doesn't strain any longer trying to produce low frequencies my Loth-X cannot produce anyway, especially at higher volume. My entire system's soundscape has truely opened up, likewise you said,

..."the sheer bodily mass of a large orchestral work is suddenly very much apparent."

When I played Pink Floyd's The Final Cut (on CD, alas I don't own the LP version), saying WOW is an understatement! It almost sounds like a live concert being performed in my listening room. The same can also be said when I played a Gothic recording of organist Frederick Swann at the huge Aeolian-Skinner pipe organ at the Riverside Church in NYC; there was so much more brute de force when full organ was engaged...not just the added bass, natch, but more air and presence seem to be projected, and the sheer tonality of each rank of pipes seem to speak much clearer, more open...since the sub was added to my system and my SET amp doesn't have to work nearly as hard. It's like I gained more watts of clean power, like having real muscle as you've said.

I just wonder if this same approach would work for you. If you kept your EL34 Powerhouse and added a powerful REL or equivalent subwoofer to your system, would you still obtain all the muscle to hear your classical LPs, all the while retaining the finesse and musicality that you somewhat lack with the SS amp? I'm not just talking about adding more bass (your homemade loudspeakers may produce bass down to 20Hz for all I know); I'm talking about your Powerhouse sounding more dynamic and transparent and appearing more powerful since it wouldn't have to work as hard to produce all the frequencies from large orchestral works, rock operas, live concert recordings, et al. It just seems to me that no matter how better the SS amp sounds while operating 24/7, there's still a bit of reservation during critical listening sessions (that the cons still outweigh the pros, no matter how better it seems to sound by each passing day). IMO I'd just hate to see you regret your decision on replacing your tube amp for the SS brute when all you may really need is an added subwoofer.

Just my two cents worth...