Bass extension requirements for 2 channel music?

[Audible Nectar]

"If you are into Industrial, huge subs are an absolute requirement. Try playing them thru a system with the big Danley Labs DTS-20 sub, probably the only sub out there a pair of K-Horns will have a hard time keeping up with...it is a tapped horn loaded, skull shattering, foundation breaking 125 db at 20hz sub that is faster than the THX Ultra 2 sub setup and is way too much fun!"

And I'll bet it isn't cheap[]

The problem with recommending subs with LaScalas/Belles on this forum is that most subs just are not enough to do them justice. A common occurrence is a forum member with a $1000/1500 pair of used LaScalas, who then wants to have a sub. It's hard to tell someone that they will have to spend 3-5 times as much on the sub as on those $1000 pair of speakers.

To get a sub that fills all of the requirements (output, depth, AND speed), they will need to spend 3-5K - or go nuts on a good DIY. Cheaper subs will only bring 2 of the three above listed requirements. An inadequate sub with fully horn loaded Heritage only serves to muddy the issue, IMO, and even with an adequate sub, there is the issue of blending it in with the system so that it sounds like the sub "disappears". "Effortlessness" is also a big key here. I would rather have LaScalas/Belles with no sub, than that system with a sub that is a mismatch, or that is otherwise not up to the job.

So typically, I think Edgar Seismic, Servodrive Contrabass - something out of the realm of normal subs - something BIG TIME. Even in consumer subs, I would want multiple Klipsch THX or SVS with top of the line and multiple drivers. That Danley appears to be a candidate from what Soundbroker has written........I want to hear that beast!!!! But typically I find myself steering people away from subs for big Heritage until they are willing to spend the appropriate $$$. I have considered the idea of subs for my Belles, but when I consider what it takes to do it right, I get discouraged pretty quickly.

So while it is true that benefits can come from adding a sub to the big Heritage, doing it right isn't cheap! When it comes to bang for the buck, I like the big Heritage just the way they are. The addition of the sub is a benefit - but not for the $$$ needed to do it right. Now if I luck out and find $2600 worth of subs for $500 (like I did for my HT), I might throw my hat into the ring[] My neighbors are probably better off anyway.....

Good subject, though - we need more sub discussion in 2 channel - as long as it's not my wallet, I'm game[]

[Duke Spinner]

lets not forget ....

it's Not that they don't Reproduce the frequency, it's just maybe 10 dB down ....

EQ, anyone ...??

well not you SET guys ...but I......

have power to Burn............[]

[sfogg]

"output, depth, AND speed), "

No such thing as a 'fast' subwoofer. A 'faster' wave (from no signal to

max amplitude) is by definition a higher frequency wave. Speed is a

misnomer, what most actually mean is non-resonant.

"they will need to spend 3-5K - or go nuts on a good DIY. "

I matched a pair of ACI Titans with my LaScalas and they worked well.

Around $800 each. True they ran out of steam well before the LaScalas

but they had internal limiting to keep them from sounding nasty when

that happened.... they just wouldn't play any louder. And that was

basically around 103dB at the listening position when that occured. IOW

below that point they complimented the LaScala's nicely and added in

some much needed bass.

Shawn

[sfogg]

Duke,

"it's Not that they don't Reproduce the frequency, it's just maybe 10 dB down ...."

Horns unload at around 24dB/octave. To extend their response one octave

would require 24dB off boost one octave down. If you are using a watt

for the rest of the spectrum you would need over 200 watts for the 24dB

boost. That is going to dramatically increase distortion in the bass

and increase IMD distortion on everything coming out of the woofer. Not

to mention a K33 might not like that kind of EQ boost.

Adding a subwoofer and reducing the work the K33 is going to do is

going to reduce distortion in the K33 and free up power available for

it too.

Shawn

[michael hurd]

As it was mentioned an instrument does not produce a pure single tone, it produces a variety of under and over-tones as well. This is known as the harmonics of an instrument, and it helps us distinguish different instruments, even though they are playing the same fundamental tone. The amplitude of the additional frequencies varies from instrument to instrument, depending on construction materials, physical size, etc.

[michael hurd]

pg 2.

[Duke Spinner]

.."

Horns unload at around 24dB/octave.

Shawn

who said anything about horns ...??

my 4430's are +/- 3dB to 30 hz ...

to go to 20 ...ain't a big deal

[formica]

DrWho and Micheal are correct in emphasizing the fact that instruments

do produce very low harmonics... and not just the fundamental

frequency. Probably one of the reasons drums just feel so much

more dynamic live.

It's also one of vinyl's major drawbacks...

So while it is true that benefits can come

from adding a sub to the big Heritage, doing it right isn't cheap!

But the benefits are far superior to most tweaks traded round

here.... esp with bass shy LaScala/Belle (+ Heresy). It is

true that the hardest part of matching a sub with big heritage is

shear output. There are quite a few reasonably priced, quality,

subs... as long as you don't want to hit 110db at 20Hz with

them. []

If you like to rock it, things do get complicated fast... I suppose it depends on your listening habits.

ROb

[edwinr]

I've had the cheap subs. They're fun at first, but after a while they detract from the music. The La Scalas deserve a really good sub. Not necessarily an expensive one. But I'd rather listen to La Scalas without a sub if the only other option was a low to middling quality boom box.

Any good quality sub can be intergrated into a system with the La Scala. If the sub is of sufficient quality, you shouldn't be able to hear it when it's switched in. You should only be able to notice the difference when the sub is switched out of the system. Differences I've noticed include a perception of more 'air' and substance to the music with a sub, and obviously more extension when the muusic has the low level information.

But the La Scalas still sound fine without a sub. I know people suggest they lack bass, but I can't really hear that difficiency, try as I might. Admittedly my current listening room is of double brick construction - that might help.

[Duke Spinner]

Edwin ...

fill out your system profile, you ... dawg ....[]

[sfogg]

"who said anything about horns ...??"

Assumed horns (bad assumption..sorry) since the thread was started about K'Horns and LaScalas.

"my 4430's are +/- 3dB to 30 hz ..."

The bass driver (2235H) is a lot more potent then the K33. Even still

ported speakers roll off fourth order too. The 4430 is rated to full

power to 27hz. Below there the power handling of the speaker decreases

so too much EQ/SPL could cause problems/damage. Try to EQ to flat can

work (BagEnd does this) but it has drawbacks WRT power handling and

reduced overall SPL ability of the speaker.

Besides... you know you want a pair of B460s anyway.

"o go to 20 ...ain't a big deal"

Some of us go lower then that too.

Shawn

[Audible Nectar]

"Besides... you know you want a pair of B460s anyway. :)"

Yes I do[]

[NOSValves]

I've had the cheap subs. They're fun at first, but after a while they detract from the music. The La Scalas deserve a really good sub. Not necessarily an expensive one. But I'd rather listen to La Scalas without a sub if the only other option was a low to middling quality boom box.

Any good quality sub can be intergrated into a system with the La Scala. If the sub is of sufficient quality, you shouldn't be able to hear it when it's switched in. You should only be able to notice the difference when the sub is switched out of the system. Differences I've noticed include a perception of more 'air' and substance to the music with a sub, and obviously more extension when the muusic has the low level information.

But the La Scalas still sound fine without a sub. I know people suggest they lack bass, but I can't really hear that difficiency, try as I might. Admittedly my current listening room is of double brick construction - that might help.

I wouldn't describe it as lacking bass either. I would say they lack a bit of "room presence" the stuff you can feel but can not hear. That is why IMHO if the Sub is a low quality or high quality with the crossover point/level too high it just sounds like dung with music. A good example was at the Indy Klipsch Pilgrimage where Trey had his <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />THX Ultra 2 subs with Lascala's. I couldn't get them Klipsch HT trained employees to leave the darn sub alone they kept cracking them up. I finally gave up.

Craig<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[Duke Spinner]

.

Besides... you know you want a pair of B460s anyway.

shawn

Shawn ....

didja see what that last pair of B460's went for ..Each ...??

[8-)]

[sfogg]

"didja see what that last pair of B460's went for ..Each ...??"

Nope... but I'm guessing big bucks? How much?

Shawn

[Audible Nectar]

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-B460-with-BX63A-Excellent-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ5831914994QQcategoryZ64612QQss

PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Try 2,649 smackeroos[] For ONE. I wonder if the winning bidder bought the other one. All I can say is that my carpet is still soaked with saliva after a week of watching that auction.

See the bottom pic. WOW. He did sell them all, AFAIK.

[sfogg]

OUCH! So glad I DIYed my JBL based subs....

Shawn

[colterphoto1]

What's that rule of thumb again?... For a 2 channel music system, 50Hz is sufficient? Or was that 40Hz? It seems to be popular opinion that for music, a Khorn with a Fc of 40Hz doesn't need a sub while the LaScala with a Fc of 60Hz may need one?

Well, I was testing a disk in which I found the mix "lacklustre" in spectrum lab so... I decided to throw a couple of favourites albums in to see how they test in bass content. These are all regular 2-channel music recordings on CD... and not DVDA or SACD.

The first one is Front242's song "Melt" from the live album called ReBoot98 .... it has great solid low level intensity. Although the bulk is centred at 40 to 50Hz... it actually extends below 20Hz.

I think the general rule you are referring to is the reproduction of pre-synthetic music. The bass guitar, for instance, has a low E as it's lowest fundamenta. This corresponds to approx 20 Hz as seen in the chart.

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

Of course, nowadays there are 5 and 6 string basses which can be tuned even lower, and there are always those dreaded sub-harmonics that come from the depths of the earth. Modern music with heavy synthesizers and sound effects used in movies can be even lower.

I believe in using subs to extend the frequency response of a sound REPRODUCTION system to be flatter in the low bass regions. However, practical listening experience has shown far too many users abuse this power to artifically enhance the music or soundtrack. This oft times results in excessive subwoofer movement at times when there is NO APPARENT SOURCE for the thumps, rumbles and warble tones produced. If for instance, one is listening to the Eagles and four acoustic guitars are playing, there should be no audible output from the subsystem. I have hear systems where there is an annoying amount of useless LF info coming out of the speakers at inopportune moments. This spoils the performance and listening experience,l imho. It's like guys and their first surround experience, the rear speakers are almost always too loud for the first 6 months, then they get it tweaked so it sounds natural, as the Director intended.

Bottom line, use Subs, but TURN IT DOWN!

Michael

[formica]

I wouldn't

describe it as lacking bass either. I would say they lack a bit of

"room presence" the stuff you can feel but can not hear.

IMHO, there is nothing wrong in choosing not to use a subwoofer... as

long as it's not based on the idea that there is no content for them to

reproduce.

I can hear 20Hz to 50Hz quite well, and that is more than an octave.

I've tested this both at home, and the science centre (20Hz to

16200Hz). I auditioned LaScalas with BreakBeat Era I posted earlier... and the missing octaves were very noticeable.

ROb

[michael hurd]

I can hear 20 hz barely.... in my car, with a test cd I made, a 20 hz sinewave at almost full output makes me feel as if my ears are plugged. I can sure feel it though!