Klipsch Synergy

[jt1stcav]

Good for you, Erik. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your Synergy/Heritage combination if in the end it works out for you and Marie. If it's a sound the both of you can live with for both music and movies, then it's a match you should be proud of! Congrats.[]

[sfogg]

Dave,

"With that Panasonic the sound from a really good soundtrack is STUNNING. "

Absolutely! Some movies very effectively take advantage of sound and

music in telling the story and listening to movies on a good setup is a

totally different experience then listening through a TVs speakers in

mono. Movie sound also still understands the importance of dynamics....

Shawn

[Dave in ABQ]

Well Said Jim,

Erik sounds like this is a good solution, temporary or not for you and you wife. I'm dreamin about the day we can own our own house some day. I've envisioning a resesed area for a a Belle or LaScalla in the center of the room with an accoustically transparent projector screen that can be pulled down in front of it when viewing movies. OH YeaH Baby!!! I can dream at least. []

[Deang]

I hate to rain on the parade, but the subjective nature of the hobby does not mean anything goes. A blue sun against a yellow sky might look interesting, but it's not right. I can insist that there's nothing wrong with it and it's all very fine indeed because I like it so -- but it doesn't change the fact that it's not the way it really works.

I did enjoy reading your impressions of the speaker, and I agree that the new Synergy speakers are very impressive.

[ben.]

One of my most distinct memories is walking home from school as a kid and lookng over to the right at the grass, and suddely being struck by the realization that the color green that I see just might be quite dissimilar to the green that others see and relate to. I immediately understood that the same relativity could be applied to the color orange. One thought led to another... It literally changed the way I think and function in this world.

I'm also quite sure this has little to do with plastic woofers. Merry Christmas!

[maxg]

Erik,

I am getting used to your "out of left field" [] approach to audio so I suppose this one is no different - and if it works for you - more power to you!!

Conventional wisdom says that the synergy (not the speaker - although the shared name might mean something) between mains and centre channel is of vital importance when listening to music. On the face of it your choice of speaker mix would not fit that bill.

There are, therefore several possibilities:

1. Synergy between mains and centre channel is really not that important after all and this is just an old audiophile's tale.

2. Synergy between the Khorn and the Synergy centre speaker is really much better generally than any of us have imagined.

3. The surround sound processor that you are using is masking the differences between the speakers.

4. You and Marie have developed some strange musical tastes.

I do wonder how much all of this has to do with how your surround sound processor is handling the channel separation. If the main singer, for example, were coming out of the centre channel entirely and the backing group from the mains, entirely - then synergy, or the lack thereof, might be a real issue. I would imagine a relative image size issue -with the singer appearing too small in relation to the rest of the band.

On the other hand if there is more spread across the front it would mask the smaller size issue - especially if the mains are dominant and the centre channel is serving purely to locate the sound more accurately centre stage.

The latter seems to match my recollection of the way you have been using the centre channel to date.

It might be interesting to disconnect the centre channel, on that basis, and merely use the speakers on the TV (if you have a line in to the TV - or A.N.other speaker totally different from the Klispch speakers) to see what difference that would make. I would not be surprised to be told that this too provides an acceptable result.

If the above is true that the mix you have works entirely as a result of the Lexicon. It would mean that you are not using the centre channel in the same way as a normal (!) surround sound amp such as a Yamaha or a Denon would - where such a mix of disparate speakers would be potentially disasterous (theoretically at least).

Then again - if you were to take said denon or Yamaha and wack the volume level of the centre down significantly - and set the centre speaker to small you might be able to achieve much the same effect.

The bottom line on all of this (other than the fact I dont really know what I am talking about) is that there are possible ways to explain what you and Marie are enjoying without having the throw the rule book out.

[Erik Mandaville]

Dean:

"I hate to rain on the parade, but the subjective nature of the hobby does not mean anything goes."

Sure it does.

If this is 'rain on my parade,' it evaporated before it hit the ground.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Max:

"I am getting used to your "out of left field" approach to audio so I suppose this one is no different - and if it works for you - more power to you!!"

Thanks for the encouragement.

What's out in left field? If you think I'm alone in having an interest in integrating music and home movie-watching, I would certainly disagree. If you believe I am further alone in enjoying music-only by way of surround sound, I disagree with that too. However, if I haven't hit the mark as far as what you're referring to as 'left field,' what are you talking about?

The only thing that may not be an ideal match is the Synergy center channel. For home theater use and most music listening it works well enough for us to enjoy listening to music and watching movies together. Forgive me, but I don't see what is so far-fetched about this. The La Scala we had been using these past months was borrowed, Max, it wasn't ours. We bought a new TV, and wanted something that would work well and not cost a bunch of money. We wanted something that we could put up over the TV that both sounded very decent and was visually unobtrusive. The Synergy speaker fulfilled those requirements, and we are very much enjoying the result. Simple.

Erik

[maxg]

Max:

"I am getting used to your "out of left field" approach to audio so I suppose this one is no different - and if it works for you - more power to you!!"

Thanks for the encouragement.

What's out in left field? If you think I'm alone in having an interest in integrating music and home movie-watching, I would certainly disagree. If you believe I am further alone in enjoying music-only by way of surround sound, I disagree with that too. However, if I haven't hit the mark as far as what you're referring to as 'left field,' what are you talking about?

The only thing that may not be an ideal match is the Synergy center channel. For home theater use and most music listening it works well enough for us to enjoy listening to music and watching movies together. Forgive me, but I don't see what is so far-fetched about this. The La Scala we had been using these past months was borrowed, Max, it wasn't ours. We bought a new TV, and wanted something that would work well and not cost a bunch of money. We wanted something that we could put up over the TV that both sounded very decent and was visually unobtrusive. The Synergy speaker fulfilled those requirements, and we are very much enjoying the result. Simple.

Erik

I wasn't expecting such a defensive response - nor one so fixated on the jokey introduction rather than the meat of the post. The left field was marked with a wink. This is the 2 channel forum. You have gone from 2 channel into mutli-channel using the Lexicon (which is hardly a best seller product in comparison to other surround sound processors - think Yamaha, Denon et al), and an accompanying array of amps and speakers mixing digital and tubes, Heritage, Synergies and some other speaker the name of which escapes me right now.

I dont know - this may be all common practice in the States - its just an approach I am not familiar with and hence the lighthearted comment.

As for doing all of this on a budget - I have no problem with that approach at all. I understand the LaScala was not yours and had to be returned and limited funds dictated your choice of centre channel as much as anything else. Even here though - the choice of the speaker, as you state, is far from an obvious one. Were I in your shoes I would have hunted down a single used Heresy for a similar budget with the expectation (possibly incorrect) of better sonic synergy. I dont know - maybe there is no space for the Heresy - but even then with your skills I am sure transforming it into a more manageable centre channel speaker as others have done on these forums would have been relatively straightforward.

Be all this as it may - the focus of my post was to attempt to explain how on earth the match you have come up with is sonically satisfactory to you. I thought it supportive of your position rather than otherwise.

[Thoriated_Tiger]

I've had my Synergy SF2s for a few years now (3 years?), and last year

completed the HT setup with SB2 and an SC1. All of these driven

by a Panasonic XR-55 to very good effect.

Now.. here is where it gets very weird very quick. The SF2 used

to be my 2-ch rig speakers 3 years ago, when I was strapped for cash,

driven by a Dyna Stereo 70. I was happy with that, but there was

still something off. Then I lent the SF2s to a friend and

got me a pair of Fortes. Better. Then I put an Audio

Research D-70 on the Fortes, and the gates of heaven opened.

(I've yet to try the SF2s with the ARC D-70)

FFWD 2 years, the SF2s come back, along with their siblings, for my HT

rig... driven by a Sony. Kinda.... well, bad. Listenable

fersure, but no where near the 2-ch rig..

FFWD 1 year.. I drop a panasonic xr 55 into the mix... MUCH better...

Then I spiked the SF2s and the SC2 (they were resting on carpet, minus

their feet, because the guy I loaned the SF2s to lost the feet)..

spiking the SF2s did such a change that I'm still trying to reconcile

in my head what happened, why something as simple as spiking a speaker

will remove a few layers of opaqueness.. but that's what it did.

Not more bass, not more treble, but more detail -- I could hear far

deeper into the recording than I could without 'em spiked.

After the spiking, I would have to honestly say the Synergies are very,

very good speakers, and doubly so considering their humble price.

Their performance is creepy, almost -- I don't think there's another

speaker in that price range that can match 'em. I still look at

'em in disbelief. The only thing they lack, imo, is the

bone-crushing *WHACK* of the Forte bass. They have bass, but the

Forte feels so much stronger there. A sub has fixed that.

A tip of the hat to Klipsch. I always thought of the Synergy line

as a bottom-feeder, big-box retailer loss-leader. But after

addressing things like amplification, positioning and spiking, I am

very impressed with the Synergy. Every inch a Klipsch. After

tearing them down to look at the build, I was impressed -- far above

what say a Tangent was, and much more in line with traditional Klipsch

quality -- solid as an anvil, in other words []

I do have to wonder... will the Klipsch Synergy be the "Sleeper" speaker of the 2000's? My ears say "yes".

As for the TI PurePath the Panasonic uses? Um.... surreal,

unreal, unexpected, I love it... almost feels like having seven single

ended triodes with 100 watts a piece. The 55 does a neat little

trick where it straps un-used amps in 2-ch mode to 'dual-amp' the main

two front speakers. In any mode, the clarity is startling, very

much (as mentioned by others here) like a top-shelf, squeaky-clean amp.

[Deang]

"...almost feels like having seven single ended triodes with 100 watts a piece."

I haven't heard the Panasonic, but I thought very much the same thing about the TEAC when I first fired it up. The TEAC sounds very much like the Welborne Apollos I used to own.

[sfogg]

Max,

"On the other hand if there is more spread across the front it would mask the smaller size issue -"

How much the Lexicon steers to the center or not will depend upon how Erik has the 'Center steering' parameter set.

It has options of OFF, Music, Film. OFF means the steering from the L/Rs isn't done, but the center is run with basically a passive L+R mix at lower level. Sort of like what the PWKs 'mini-box' does. Music uses a moderate amount of steering to move the central material to the center speaker but it is also in the L/Rs to a a degree to.

Film is more aggressive in reproducing central material in the center alone.

Also keep in mind the Lex. is rolling off the center speaker below 120hz and redirecting that material to the L/Rs. Like has been mentioned there is no way a couple of small woofers is going to keep up with the K'Horns bass. *But* they don't need to. The Lexicon is dealing with that for Erik.

"(which is hardly a best seller product in comparison to other surround sound processors - think Yamaha, Denon et al)"

Well of course not. Not when the Lexicon cost $5k originally (without amps) and the Yamahas and Denons can be had for 1/10 of the price with amps and such. $500 Bose speakers outsells K'Horns by a *huge* margain. Doesn't mean much since we are talking different classes of product.

Shawn

[anarchist]

Lexicon makes an incredible preamp and would largely resolve the efficiency differences between the mismatched center and remaining speakers; it would not resolve the timbre differences and it would be clearly heard the majority of the time.

I have lived in such a world back in 98 - this is nothing new nor surprising. One can take great pleasure in their audio world despite having poorly selected components; it doesn't optimize the experience however and when one has become accustomed to properly matched components, the alternative is no longer as enjoyable but can be tolerated by some.

Taste and satisfaction are subjective. One can eat dog food, find it perfectly palatable, and may even offer it as an alternative to an expensive steak. They would be correct but in the end, it is still dog food and I wouldn't eat it. YMMV.

[maxg]

Shawn,

So essentially you agree with my hypothesis - namely that the Lex is making this happen for Erik (and Marie). I would certainly be impressed with the Synergy if he could achieve the same level of integration with a cheaper Yammy....

And I know that the Lex is in a different price class. I was not questioning the value of thing - merely illustrating to Erik that his recent approach in his system is, shall we say, not following the beaten path - if "out of left field" is to be adjudged harsh.

[sfogg]

" it doesn't optimize the experience however"

Of course not. I'd take a non-optimized experience over no experience any day of the week though.

Very few have systems that are as completely optimzed as possible. We all have to make compromises in some form or another.

Shawn

[sfogg]

"So essentially you agree with my hypothesis - namely that the Lex is making this happen for Erik (and Marie)."

It might be, it might not be. For two channel music/movie sources it can be configured such that a lesser center would be masked to a degree. The opposite is true too... it can be configured such that it would likely highlight a center that didn't blend well.

For any discrete 5.1 movie material that Lexicon doesn't have any sort of steering controls to the center, it just works off what is in the mix itself. Although it does have a processing option (Vocal Enhance) that will put emphasis on the vocal portion of what is in the center speaker.

Shawn

[Erik Mandaville]

Max:

"merely illustrating to Erik that his recent approach in his system is, shall we say, not following the beaten path"

My point, Max, is that this or any illustration of this so-called 'off the beaten path approach' is not necessary. It doesn't matter to me if it's 'out in left field,' 'off the beaten path,' 'over the deep end,' or anything else. From what you're saying, it seems to me that you may have, shall we way, not followed the text very closely. Go back for a minute and check. I believe I did indicate that this combination seemed unlikely to me, too, and that it was not IMO an ideal match, that some compromise has been made with the integration of the C1 into the system, but that it is a compromise I am, based on the very decent sound we are getting from this speaker for BOTH music and movies, willing to accept.

Remember some of what transpired when I brought up the initial experiment with the Klipsch minibox and very-new-to-me center channel?! I wasn't even the one who came up with the idea -- we rather know the individual responsible for that, do we not?

Try something that seems really impossible to do sometime. If the attempt fails, you learned something. If you never try it, you remain ignorant -- perhaps blissfully so, which is anyone's option if that's what one chooses for oneself, but ignorant nevertheless. I would rather try and make a mistake than not try at all. If you go back and more carefully read some offshoots of the subject, you will also discover that I have ideas of how to incorporate a true horn loaded midgrange and tweeter above the TV in place of the C1. It's something I actually thought of before we bought this new speaker, but the small Synergy, as I said several times, is capable of sound that is unrelated to its comparatively diminutive size.

Of course the Lexicon is part of all of this -- it's a system afterall, just as all our systems are organizations of individual component parts. The key element here -- for the seemingly more than millionth time -- is that it is working for us, for how we use it. If your system is devoid of any compromises here or maybe there, however small, than you are lucky. Enjoy what you have, and have fun doing so! We sure are!

Erik