Klipsch Synergy

[Erik Mandaville]

Making arrangements to return the borrowed La Scala center channel to its owner, we started to look around for what I thought would be a very difficult to find replacement candidate. Recent room arrangements and rearrangements had prevented integrating home theater and music within the same system, but that has changed.

We were at an area Best Buy a couple of weeks ago, and they had a complete Klipsch Synergy home theater setup pumping out some amazing sound. Despite the modest size of the speakers (I'm so used to the big Klipschorns and La Scala), what they supplied in terms of seemingly endless bandwidth and sheer scale was really something. The center channel was the C-1, and we found it capable of both very loud and clean output. They had the subs turned up WAAAAY too high, and I asked if it could be turned down a bit for a better balance with the rest of what was going on. However, what I did hear once they were turned down confirmed the fact that I will have one (or two) in the system at some point hopefully not too far away.

Anyway, we bought a C-1 then-and-there. I had obvious doubts about timbre matching and efficiency issues when paired with the Klipschorns, but I have to say we were very pleasantly surprised. Sure there is a difference, but it's one we can easily accept because the overall sound is so good with both movie soundtracks and music.

For such a comparatively small speaker, this center channel is remarkable. The whole well-priced Synergy HT setup illustrated once again the quality of the engineering and design work going on at Klipsch. The speakers are much, much smaller than the big Heritage horns, but the sound they made was completely unrelated to their physical size. These speakers pulled off that vanishing act in a way that was truly impressive. Very, very nice!

Erik

[Daddy Dee]

Erik,

Who woulda guessed that would be a good solution?

That's most interesting.

[Duke Spinner]

i woulda blown off this post ....

if it didn't come from you, Eric ......

interesting ..

[colterphoto1]

Erik, I know that you're a well respected poster here, but I have a hard time believing that two 4" plastic woofers could timbre match Khorns.

Are you sure you heard it correctly? Did you listen to critical selections that swept across the front sound field? With their very disparate efficiency, I don't see how they could keep up and with only 50 watts power handling, there's no way they could hold up for long alongside Khorns at concert or realistic HT levels.

Michael

[Erik Mandaville]

I do understand that this combination might seem to be an unlikely match. Truly, I felt the same way. Please note that I did not say that the the Synergy center channel and Klipschorns (plus Heresy surrounds) are an ideal match. I noted very different characteristics when balancing output levels with the Lexicon, and mentioned to a couple of other forum members via email that I was concerned about how the combination would work out. Remember that the surrounds, at least in my case, are rolled off to 120Hz, as well. It's primary function for music, along with the Heresies on the sides (no rear channels yet), is light center fill, which is how we also had the La Scala balanced when it was here. For movies, the placement at the top of the Panasonic plasma is really ideal for dialogue. It works extremely, and in this sense partners really well with the Klipschorns, which are along the long wall, tucked tightly into corners.

In order to combine components in the way that would work best for BOTH music and movies (and to some degree room decor), I had to make a compromise -- replacing the La Scala.

However, I have been working out a way to incorporate a true horn-loaded center channel. This would involve suspending a midrange horn plus tweeter over the top of the TV, with the lower end response (still rolled off at 120 cycles) covered by a mid-bass driver in most likely a small sealed enclosure. My wife just did not care for the big La Scala looking back at us for center channel HT use, and is much happier with the Synergy. As skeptical as I was, the match is honestly very satisfactory for the time being. More than that, we listen to more music together. The way things were before, we had music and TV as separate entities, where the music setup was built around what would work best for a single listener. It shut others out, and to my way of thinking was subsequently not as suitable as it should be.

Although perhaps not ideal, the small synergy speaker works quite well as is, but could probably stand a diet slightly higher in watt-calories. I have some options for that.

Erik

[Deang]

"i woulda blown off this post ..."

I did.

C'mon Erik!!!

[Mallette]

Greetings, Erik! I thought you'd pulled out sometime back. Great to hear from you for a couple of reasons. One, I'll have the same problem soon and your solution interests me. Perhaps I can provide some support (as if you need it from me) as (to bring up the second reason) I am now in Houston and will be moving the family down next summer. I currently use a Cornwall as a center, but it belongs to a friend of mine and, though he has no plans for it, I have the same esthetic and WAF issues with the big beastie as a center channel for video. With all due respects to Bell labs, PWK, and many on the Forum who advocate a center channel for music I've found two adequate when properly set up and the third to create too much fiddle factor to suit me for music. Therefore, I need a decent center for video as well. Your solution sounds interesting. What does the C-1 cost?

Dave

[Deang]

Why not use an Academy?

[Erik Mandaville]

Dean:

"I did.

C'mon Erik!!!:)"

No you didn't.

Once again: Although anyone is entitled to an opinion, what others think about the prospects of this match (or anything else where individual choices, tastes, and preferences are the key deciding factors) is entirely irrelevant. What matters is what sounds good to me and my wife, in our house, in the room we have, with the equipment we have, with the music we like to listen to, and the volume at which we like to listen to it. Sometimes it's good to turn off the mind or preconceptions about what might work and what won't. I did that very thing in this case, and am very happy with the sound. I also have enough experience at this to know what is working and what isn't. An Academy or other 'box' speaker would be very difficult to integrate with a 42" plasma screen without hanging it like some sort of giant, geometric brown fruit over the TV, which is what I'm trying to get away from.

The C-1 was under $200.

More on this later -- I've got dinner to get ready.

Erik

[colterphoto1]

Erik, what you propose sounds like JMalotky's center rig. It's a custom LS mid/hi 'wedge' that is partly 'buried' in the ceiling, with a double Heresy low end under the screen. Very unassuming and matches his Khorn mains and Heresy surrounds very well.

Michael

[Mallette]

Yep, that's Erik. The guy that convinced me to give a class D amp a try...something I would probably not have done unless it had been him.

See my signature for another endorsement of such thinking...

Dave

[NOSValves]

Erik, I know that you're a well respected poster here, but I have a hard time believing that two 4" plastic woofers could timbre match Khorns.

Hmmm good point.

[MarkBK]

Eric,

I always find it pays to be open to exploring what may seem like unlikely avenues to solve the problem. Enjoy the sound.

[Erik Mandaville]

Michael:

"Erik, what you propose sounds like JMalotky's center rig. It's a custom LS mid/hi 'wedge' that is partly 'buried' in the ceiling, with a double Heresy low end under the screen. Very unassuming and matches his Khorn mains and Heresy surrounds very well."

This sounds like a good idea, and I'm sure it works very well. I think some of the difficulty we would have with that has to do with what we found to be a good listening and viewing height for all of this. I have our Lexicon processor and Denon multi-player beneath the screen, but the space is really limited. Those two components fit fine, with space on the sides for the narrow-but-long Baldwin, but nothing more.

What I explained to Shawn about this sounds very similar to what you described above. This would likely be the Altec 511b, with a tweeter mounted on aluminum brackets on the flange of the Altec. It would be suspended above the TV on fine metal cable, and anchored into the ceiling, ideally the joists, for extra support. As Dave mentioned about room decor concerns, that is something I am trying to work out. My wife said she thought the suspended drivers might look kind of interesting. She just didn't want a distractingly large enclosure to look at. We tried our other much smaller TV with the La Scala, and it was 'ok' but really kind of high for comfortable viewing. What we have now definitely sounds good, and yes, of course there is a difference between the C-1 and the La Scala. But it is NOT a huge difference from what we have heard so far. I want to include as many people in on good listening and viewing as possible, regardless of the fact that the center may not 'timbre match' the Klipschorns. From the way they sound, they have certain DNA very much in common. This small center channel has the airy quality I have liked in Klipsch speakers from the first time I heard them over twenty years ago. One might be surprised at the amount of air two small midbass drivers can move. As I said, the size is not in proportion with the sound they are capable of, both in terms of quality and loudness.

But! depending on listening habits and everything else, it may not be for everyone. I guess I would include myself among those listeners here who do not listen at blastingly loud levels. Distortion has NOTHING to do with this, we just don't like to listen to music or soundtracks that way. For us, moderate to even low volume is just great. I was just talking to a band director friend the other day, who said he really missed the La Scalas he used to have in his bandroom -- not because of what they did at loud levels, but rather because of how musical they also sound at much more moderate SPLs.

Suspending a midhorn and tweeter combo wouldn't be too hard. My wife just keeps commenting on how much she likes the sound of the Synergy center channel, and I would be more than happy to use it for a long time. The Klipschorns provide by far the bulk of what we are hearing, and the center and sides fill in wonderfully well for the ambient effects and sense of space.

What would I say to her? "Marie: I'm sorry, but there are a couple of guys on the forum that think this combination is redicules and just plain sucks. We have to get rid of it."

Erik

[Bill H.]

Erik,

Glad to hear that though it is "outside the Box"-that you and the Wife like how it works for you.

That - in the final analysis is all that counts!

[Erik Mandaville]

Dave:

Sure, I understand what you're saying with regard to two-channel listening. There are times I also find that some recording do in fact seem to sound better (in whatever way that might be) in two channel. Our Lexicon is so flexible in that respect, and I can simply hit the two-channel bypass button on the remote for those recordings that sound better that way.

I have just been really trying to make the effort to include others, as I said above. Before, I used to go up to the listening room, plunk myself down in the best (and only) seat in the house (in terms of an audio 'sweet spot'). Marie would come up and quietly sit down, off to the side, and begin work on a cross-stitch project or something. It wasn't fair! We have all this nice -- at least IMO -- equipment here, and I have hogged it all. I have also cleaned up cable issues tons now, so that the room looks good for guests and less cluttered in general. I still want to bring in the rear channels for movie watching, but am going to have to think hard about the best installation for that. As far as things are right now, we can both sit in our favorite chairs and be able listen to on-axis sound and movies. For that, a small center channel speaker is a pretty simple compromise.

Just as when recommending ANY component -- amp, preamp, CDP, crossover type, or whatever -- I must qualify that what I have found to be a very workable match for both listening and viewing might not be the case for someone else. I'm using a 4-watt bridged 6BQ5 single-ended amp on the center right now, and it is surprisingly loud. Still, I might try to find or build something a little more powerful because of the difference in efficiency, etc. For us, It's a really nice-sounding work in progress.

Dave: Did you get one of the 3 channel Teacs? One of those would be perfect for the center and surround speakers, and might make a nice addition for video/DVD watching.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Mark:

"I always find it pays to be open to exploring what may seem like unlikely avenues to solve the problem. Enjoy the sound."

Absolutely! Can you imagine where human civilization would be right now if experimenters, explorers, and dreamers abandonded everything they wanted to accomplish or try because others told them 'it's not going to work' or 'You're out of your mind -- what you are proposing is a physical impossibility." Sure, sometimes things don't work, but how would that be known unless some guy or gal hadn't given whatever that thing was at least a chance!?

Our purchasing a Synergy center channel to use with our Klipsch Heritage horns is nothing even remotely like what's mentioned above. The speaker sounded superb, and enough so to me to take a chance with trying it out with our Klipschorn-based audio system. It's not bad at all! I listen to music for an hour or two every evening with headphones, and don't at all mind this tiny compromise that allows us to spend time enjoying better music and soundtracks. Honestly, the sound we have for both now is pretty awesome!

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Bill:

"Glad to hear that though it is "outside the Box"-that you and the Wife like how it works for you.

That - in the final analysis is all that counts!"

Agreed!

[Erik Mandaville]

I will share a picture of this when Santa brings me my new digital camera! The thing seems[] more complex than a digital processor, and I'm a very slow learner with stuff like that; so it might take some practice to figure out. It will be tons of fun, though![]

Erik

[Mallette]

Nope, no Teac. I located a Panasonic SA XR45 for 127.00. It is the TI chipset, which, though largely ignored compared to Tripath, I had not heard panned. You can search for my posts about it from about six months or so back, or you can come hear it yourself here in Houston on the little system I am using here. Hopefully, by next summer, I'll be all set up in a house with a family (looking on ebay for a good one now []) and the main system.

Bottom line is that, at least to my ears, I've never heard a non-tube amp either that accurate or that listenable, nor have I heard a non-passive (read:Hafler) circuit better that Pro Logic II at recovering ambience from stereo sources without detectable "steering." The only things I kept in the main system were my Van Alstine tube preamp feeding the important stuff (phono, CD, SACD, DVD-A, etc) to the Panasonic, and my ST-70, which I have switchable from the Panasonic for music when I want the warm glow of tubes and plain ol 2 channel.

I had a 36" Toshiba sitting on the Cornie in the center for video. It was not the main TV watching point in the house, but when the movie or whatever was about the SOUND, that is where I went. 'horn-corn-'horn in the front and Frazier Mark IV's wall mounted in the rear. With that Panasonic the sound from a really good soundtrack is STUNNING.

My wife does understand that my only horse in the house hunting race down here is proper corners for the listening room. Beyond that, it is her call...unless she want the 'horns back in the bedroom again!

Dave