mobile homeless Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 This thread is amazing. If it were a script, it might make honorable mention at Sundance....or maybe the audience award. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 What sort of head room do you need when you're cranking a John Gilmore solo at around 98db average? All I can tell you is that a pair of MC30s deliver MORE than enough juice. Of course, I am SURE someone will chime in and tell me that if I were running a 400 watt pro audio amp Gilmore would sound more dynamic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted December 27, 2005 Author Share Posted December 27, 2005 What sort of head room do you need when you're cranking a John Gilmore solo at around 98db average? All I can tell you is that a pair of MC30s deliver MORE than enough juice. Of course, I am SURE someone will chime in and tell me that if I were running a 400 watt pro audio amp Gilmore would sound more dynamic. Yeah! Pink Floyd roolz. Who's the black dude? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 What sort of head room do you need when you're cranking a John Gilmore solo at around 98db average? All I can tell you is that a pair of MC30s deliver MORE than enough juice. Of course, I am SURE someone will chime in and tell me that if I were running a 400 watt pro audio amp Gilmore would sound more dynamic. Yeah! Pink Floyd roolz. Who's the black dude? I think he was from Saturn. The story goes that when the Sun Ra band relocated to NY from Chicago in 1961 Coltrane was at the first gig and after hearing Gilmore play he stayed until after the last set and BEGGED Gilmore for lessons. Supposedly it was hearing Gilmore that inspired the earth shattering "Chasin' the Trane" from the first Village Vanguard LP. Sounds right to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 The story goes that when the Sun Ra band relocated to NY from Chicago in 1961 Coltrane was at the first gig and after hearing Gilmore play he stayed until after the last set and BEGGED Gilmore for lessons. Supposedly it was hearing Gilmore that inspired the earth shattering "Chasin' the Trane" from the first Village Vanguard LP. Sounds right to me.I heard that one a bit differently.... lordy, you've got ole Coltrane on his knees begging Gilmore for lessons? Hey, it's almost 2006... by 07, Coltrane will be Gilmore's second wife.... You can make a Wikipedia addition! heh. Hey ben, it must have been one dull Christmas eve.... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 [ Hey, it's almost 2006... by 07, Coltrane will be Gilmore's second wife.... You can make a Wikipedia addition! heh. Now there is Bowmore 12 years on my brand new flat screen. and I'm still waiting for a poll... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 ben, Well, if you want to limit the system so that you cannot possibly clip the tweeters, let's take the next logical step. Let's calabrate the system so that it cannot damage human hearing. My eighth cranial nerve is impossible to replace, so we may as well eliminate any possiblity of hearing loss while we are at this non-standard recalibration. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 I'm having trouble figuring out what all the fuss is about here. If you usually listen with a 1/2 watt make sure you have at least 3. If you normally use around 5, make sure you have 25. 10/50, 20/100, etc. At least, that's how it used to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 I'm having trouble figuring out what all the fuss is about here. If you usually listen with a 1/2 watt make sure you have at least 3. If you normally use around 5, make sure you have 25. 10/50, 20/100, etc. At least, that's how it used to work.This one's a sure winner for rules to be broken, whether in or outside of Jean-Francois' front loader. Nice Tree. That's a high as hell noise floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 I'm having trouble figuring out what all the fuss is about here. If you usually listen with a 1/2 watt make sure you have at least 3. If you normally use around 5, make sure you have 25. 10/50, 20/100, etc. At least, that's how it used to work. It still works that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Coltrane sure didn't tounge-slap nearly as much or as well before Sun Ra came to New York. And Gilmore might be the finest tounge slapper who ever slapped a reed. Right?Tounge slapping lessons?Bowmore. Islay peet juice. MmmmmmmBut is it dynamic enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted December 28, 2005 Author Share Posted December 28, 2005 Maybe this weekend I'll grab a Microtech 1200 from the loaner pile at work to see what this headroom business is all about. I obviously am missing something. Can I borrow your tweeters? And your ears? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Make sure you play them LOUD so you can hear how dynamic your speakers can be with high power pro audio amps driving them. I suggest "Helen Merrill Sings Beatles" until your eyeballs rattle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 A nice, highly compressed CD with a dynamic range of 3 decibels should do nicely. At -3dBfs it should sound great. Anything that sounds good on a boom box should work well as demo material since dynamic range does not matter. However, if dynamic range and headroom are of any value to you, try the Telarc 1812 on your current amp and then the Crown. Before you hook up the Crown, it might be nice to be sure that your preamp can handle the 10 k ohm input impedance on the Crown. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Wow, I never woulda thought "low power + TT" would stir up the pot so much. But seriously, take a look at the entire market and notice the trends. Sure, there are always exceptions but it's still an interesting observation (and I have no need to be biased in any way). And I would be interested in specific references to CDs that have less dynamic range than their LP counterparts (real measurements would be great)...most of the re-releases are being ripped straight from reel to reel - where the medium has already naturally compressed the signal. An engineer would be an idiot for trying to run this signal through yet another compressor. If anything, they're using expanders to widen the range (though must of them are just doing straight rips with a touch of corrective EQ). The music I listen to isn't available on LP, but I'm certain it wouldn't keep up if it was....pushing on average over 30dB of dynamic range (and as much as 60dB on some of my favorite pieces of music). Btw, the noise floor in a room can be measured and it is most certainly not nonexistant. In a typical dead studio setting you're looking at around 30dB. Heck, even anechoic chambers have their own noise floor. A typical church setting when the preacher isn't speaking is on average around 60dB...you know, one of those times when you can hear a pin drop. And though there is full intelligibility 10dB above the noise floor, you can still hear the noise up to levels 20dB above it...And even then you still have issues with spaces in the music (ie, rests). The annoying thing about noise is that it can never be reduced...once it's there, it only compounds. So if something is recorded in the studio with a 30dB noise floor and then we try to play it back in our room with say a 30dB noise floor...then we're looking at an overall 60dB reduction out of the 100 or so dB available to us by the medium - so a max of like 40dB of dynamic range (without any noise in the rests). Btw, these are just rough numbers and the noise doesn't "sum" completely (so you get more like 50dB). And with a 20dB pad above the noise floor you're looking at around 20-30dB of very clean range. So in my less than ideal acoustical environment I am unable to enjoy the full 60dB of my favorite pieces of music and therefore I am very aware of the limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivendell61 Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 My 2nd post re noise floors was badly worded--I was in a hurry and trying to point Ben back to read the first one.... The point being: there is not a home 'noise floor' as it is often used (and was being used) to imply a diminuation of the dynamic range. Noise floor issues are frequency dependant--so it gets a bit complicated... But in the average home listening room it is not more than 10 dB above the hearing threshold--and we can hear down through that. Listeners in home environments can hear information down to a level (average) of 4 dB SPL. In the frequencies of our highest hearing acuity some measured home listening areas even have sub zero dB SPL noise floors. As do some recording venues. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 hear ya go Doc - an article I found from somewhere a while ago that makes interesting reading: http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/LPvsCDformats.php Enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 However, if dynamic range and headroom are of any value to you, try the Telarc 1812 on your current amp and then the Crown. Before you hook up the Crown, it might be nice to be sure that your preamp can handle the 10 k ohm input impedance on the Crown.This says more about your noise floor, ears, and general understanding of all things music and audio than you even realize. Sadly, you'll miss the point of this post, as well. The main thing of concern in your case with the little Crown Micro-Tech 1200, is the saved location down to the second of the canon blasts so you can tell your buddies to come back in the room to hear the bombast. The rest of the time, the eyes will be glazed and looking for things to read such as the Telarc WARNINGS, sure to get the neophytes eyebrows in motion. The Crown M-T 1200 is a mediocre, pedestrian sounding amplifier that is more akin to using a baseball bat as a bow for a cello ......The Telarc 1812 attempt is one of the most flaccid, subpar performances by a "Pops" symphony I know, mostly used by new stereo attaboys as their Classical Selection that will make the stereo go boom to a round of mental "high fives." WOW, did you realize these are real field canon recorded using DSD? Maaaan. I cant believe your 'system' can handle that!" And the final irony is it appears the Klipsch 2 Channel Forum is now the Telarc 1812 of the Forum world, with 120dB of dynamic detritus, with points missed, specs abused, and just enough technical understanding to dig a virtual Black Hole.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 And the final irony is it appears the Klipsch 2 Channel Forum is now the Telarc 1812 of the Forum world, with 120dB of dynamic detritus, with points missed, specs abused, and just enough technical understanding to dig a virtual Black Hole.... Heh!... Booom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 The Crown M-T 1200 is a mediocre, pedestrian sounding amplifier . In some respects You are right, Kelly........ the MT series isn't meant to extract "microdynamics" from Analphile recordings.... it's more like a sledgehammer for your speakers Somehow,I personally doubt that You came to this reasoned conclusion, however, by your "experience" with a D-75 I suggest that you try a Crown Studio Reference, which IS meant for high-fidelity listening and by the way, the MT 1200, certainly is not "mediocre" niether are the QSC, BGW, AB Int'l amps.... they'll be around long after your amp has cooked it's Cap's I also am skepical of your Anti- D75 agenda, which You seemingly Love to flaunt .... it's hard to list a Studio that Doesn't use a D75 for monitors.... I guess theseEngineers / Producers all have tin ears, eh ..??. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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