"Headroom" - what does it sound like to you?

[Duke Spinner]

.

I can name about 10 different amplifier companies I would choose , Classe, , B&K, Bedini, , Aragon,, Sumo, PS Audio, , McCormack, Bryston, Threshold, etc ). While I have not heard the Crown Reference series,.

I accept your succinctly stated argument.....[]

and to say, really we are not that far apart on this issue

i am not Recommending the DC 150/300/ Macro/ Micro for Critical Listening

I edited your SS list to the amps I have the most respect for.....

don't lump the Studio Reference in the same boat as the Pro stuff, it is a Krell Killer, at 1/3 the price

the K series is astounding, especially as a low end amp, it uses the S.Reference front end...less output devices

I use mine w/ 6L6 on the comp drivers

[AnalOg]

"Klipsch made their Heritage to handle 100 watt continuous and 400 watt peaks. That was no accident, and it was meant to be used. Seems half around here have never seen the top end of the speaker's qualities actually used."

By this logic if my car is capable of doing 5000 rpm in fifth gear I should - even if that means doing 150 mph?

No, Max. It means you don't need a car that does the 5000 rpm if you don't want to go 150mph. So, if you drive 55 in such a car, you are wasting some of the car's qualities. You might prefer to waste those qualities, and if so, that's fine. I think wasting some of a car's qualities is different when you start analogizing to speakers. Why waste the qualities that Klipsch put in? You won't get in a wreck, and they will sound just fine - even at MUCH higher volumes.

The problem is people can't imagine that the higher volumes won't sound "overboard loud." When you crank that 30-watter, it might sound louder than cranking a 300-watter at 100-watts. Because when you crank that 30-watter, it gets AWFULLY rackety. It's the racket that people think defines a limit of loudness. The news is that it does not. It defines the limit of loudness people WANT to hear. If you can crank 100-watts through a 300-watt amp, it won't be rackety, and people will not consider it to be as "loud" as the racket you get when cranking a 30-watt amp toward its limit.

Jeff you hit it on the head, good job.

Tom

[AnalOg]

Also, mdeneen, you still might be confusing distortion with loss of dynamics. You lose dynamics as you turn up the volume and only certain aspects of the song will get louder - but not all. When the flute starts sounding on even keel with a kick drum, it's all out of whack and rackety. You might think it's distortion, but it's not. It's out of proportion and sounds like loud, ear-bleeding crud.

Jeff - You seem to be saying emphatically that those here without high wpc (300+) cannot crank it because they lose 'dynamics' and hence it sounds bad at very loud levels. Do you not think that it's even remotely possible you are wrong until you've visited every member's listening room? Isn't it possible that they (maybe not all) very well CAN turn it up loud and ALSO retain quality and/or dynamics? It just seems to me that most here are pretty savvy & probably have good ears and I would think they would be able to tell the difference or admit to not being able to crank it cleanly?

I'm willing to bet money that those with less 300+ WPC, etc. can indeed crank it without losting quality & your dynamics. I mean, we don't even know for sure if there will be a tomorrow - so to issue such a blanket statement of fact just doesn't seem what a thinking person would do. I mean, this may have been the case with your particular gear you've used to historically test this - but this doesn't necessarily mean it's fact to everyone out there.

Meagain,

What you need to equate into this line of thinking is how hi of SPL levels a certain individual is looking to enjoy. My HT system in my big room doesn't have enough head room to enjoy the movies at the SPL levels I would like to listen at. The sound gets compressed as you turn it up, therefore that enviroment needs more wattage to get that effortless sound to be produced in such a large room.

On the other hand, my two channel system which is in a different room and of tube topology can create very high SPL's with great dynamics to boot.

Tom

[meagain]

Tom - Well, I was assuming we were talking about music.

What wpc are you running for that that you are able to crank it cleanly? Mega watts or low?

I just question HAVING to have a 300+ amp to run khorns, etc. to be able to crank it very loud and still have it clean. Jeff's saying because I have a 65 wpc with 85 peak - that because of that sole number - there's no doubt I'm losing 'dynamics' - everything is getting muddled together and even getting clipping.

We're just not hearing it and he's telling me these things are happening whether I hear it or not. And I should ditch my current amp and get one with mega watts in order to be able to do something I think I'm already attaining? And trust me - I'm cranking it. It just sounds like a louder version of softer.

I'm just scratching my head about it. Is there anyone here with low watts that can't crank the better Klipsches without losing quality?

[maxg]

DrWho,

You asked for a test - you got one and then did the same thing anyone does when a test does not show the results they are expecting - you decry it.

Well surprise surprise....but disappointing all the same.

Tell you what - you explain it - why does vinyl sound better than CD/DVDa/SACD? And dont dream of telling me it doesn't - go listen to a good vinyl rig (or even an average rig setup properly) - it really isn't close.

Analog,

You are joking aren't you? What Jeff wrote is gibberish. Since when do we measure speaker quality by how loud they can go (dynamics in tact or otherwise)? What would the point be for anyone listening at sane levels - say 85 dB RMS in having anything approaching 400 wpc with a speaker with 104 db/w/m sensitivity and a maximum continuous rating of 100 wpc?

You guys have spent too much time at Pop concerts directly in front of the main speakers:

"The problem is people can't imagine that the higher volumes won't sound "overboard loud." "

Now don't tell me - I know this one - if the dynamics are in tact 130 dB for more than an hour won't permanently damage your hearing right? Er....no.

"When you crank that 30-watter, it might sound louder than cranking a 300-watter at 100-watts. "

Er....what? It might sound like crap - or it might sound brilliant - but it will not sound louder than the 300 watter unless the 300 watter is total garbage.

Want to hear what 30 wpc can sound like? Someone on this forum has just bought an Accuphase 530 - built with horn loaded speakers in mind - but wait - built with horn loaded speakers in mind? Are they mad? With only 30 watts? What were they thinking? Dont they know you need at least 10 times that to see "what Klipsch speakers are really capable of" - as a PA system!

Now of course it wont go loud and stay dynamic - not more than 118 dB - and that is barely a whisper. After all - a B&W 802 can hit 115 dB (with 500 wpc behind it) so we are talking hush hush here.

Now - newsflash - most music system owners (even horn loaded ones) do not hold a secret hankering to pump their music out at over 100 dB levels. They generally want to listen to music and enjoy it for the rest of their lives - and that means not exposing your ears to Rock concert SPL's over a consistant period. Once in a while? Fine - although I would prefer to save it for a live event.

Now if you happen to run your Klipsch speakers with 400 wpc or more that is fine - enjoy - Rock your world - but you are not more right than the guy that runs his with 3.5 wpc. Remember also - whilst you pronounce that he is not hearing anything like the capabilities of his speakers he will equally well tell you that you are not hearing music. The old addage about the first watt being the most imporant is not a fiction.

Of course - if we are talking home cinema - different story - but for MUSIC listening, at home, a 400 watt pro-amp is about as much use as a rocket engine is on a motor-bike. You could do it - but why?

[DrWho]

DrWho,

You asked for a test - you got one and then did the same thing anyone does when a test does not show the results they are expecting - you decry it.

Well surprise surprise....but disappointing all the same.

Tell you what - you explain it - why does vinyl sound better than CD/DVDa/SACD? And dont dream of telling me it doesn't - go listen to a good vinyl rig (or even an average rig setup properly) - it really isn't close.

No, I decried the analysis of the data - the guy was so obviously trying to prove a point and I was just merely presenting part of the other side of the argument. I would have argued against the guy if he concluded the CD was better than the LP with the exact same data! Maybe I should have been more clear that the guy ended up showing nothing. I could have spent hours breaking apart every false statement, but it would have been a complete waste of time.

For the record, I personally don't believe either is "better" than the other, but they most certainly are different.

I am more than willing to go listen to a "good vinyl rig" (seems every expensive one I hear, someone else tells me it's not a good one), but last I checked nobody disagrees that 2" reel to reel sounds better than the best of vinyl (if somebody wants to argue it, then allow me to point out that most of the vinyl out there was recorded to 2" first). And I have compared straight up analog 2" tape to a measly DAT machine and I can appreciate the sonic advantages of each - but digital is still more true to the live acoustic event. It is more a more accurate medium and there can be no argument about this (especially if you haven't compared them in the studio against the original sound). Does it sound better? Well that is a completely subjective statement - though it is such a trivial process to get the "analog tape sound" present on a CD...it just requires a little creativity.

And I have heard my fair share of "average" vinyl rigs too - yet to hear one I enjoy.

Now if we were to argue that vinyl distorts better than digital, then we might have ourselves an interesting discussion....

[Duke Spinner]

.

Want to hear what 30 wpc can sound like? Someone on this forum has just bought an Accuphase 530 - built with horn loaded speakers in mind - but wait - built with horn loaded speakers in mind? Are they mad? With only 30 watts? t Klipsch speakers are really capable of" - as a PA system!

isn't tha 530 Class A ....???

that's misleading

[Jeff Matthews]

You are joking aren't you? What Jeff wrote is gibberish. Since when do we measure speaker quality by how loud they can go (dynamics in tact or otherwise)? What would the point be for anyone listening at sane levels - say 85 dB RMS in having anything approaching 400 wpc with a speaker with 104 db/w/m sensitivity and a maximum continuous rating of 100 wpc?

You guys have spent too much time at Pop concerts directly in front of the main speakers:

"The problem is people can't imagine that the higher volumes won't sound "overboard loud." "

Now don't tell me - I know this one - if the dynamics are in tact 130 dB for more than an hour won't permanently damage your hearing right? Er....no.

.......

Of course - if we are talking home cinema - different story - but for MUSIC listening, at home, a 400 watt pro-amp is about as much use as a rocket engine is on a motor-bike. You could do it - but why?

Max, not gibberish. We measure that quality because we paid for it. If you don't need that much, you over-bought - pure and simple.

And, no the loud volumes will not damage your hearing because it is not rackety. When your ears can still decipher the code, it just sounds good. But I agree you can go too loud such that damage can be done - if you want. But I will assure you alot of the pain you experience at lower power threshholds is the racket and jumble of all the instruments not playing at their proper proportional loudness. This is racket, sounds like crap, gives you a headache since you can't decipher it easily, and makes you want to turn it down.

You are totally missing the top 1/2 of what Klipsch is capable of. ... And I mean the top - clean - 1/2, when you power them with 100 watt amps or less.

Just chalk it up to we have different music preferences, and you over-paid to satisfy yours. Or you got a great deal for way more than you need. Either way, if you don't want it, my point is not meant for you. If, on the other hand, you want to know how much higher these speakers can go, then, my point should be good avice.

[Jeff Matthews]

Meagain, you misstated my advice a little, so I want to clear that up. I did not say you need a higher powered amp to sound good even though you don't hear muddled characteristics of the sound as you crank it with your existing amp. I said, even though you don't think you hear a muddled quality, you do. You just don't know what the difference is.

You think it sounds great and clear, but with a higher powered amp (of course a clean one), it will sound sooooo much better and less muddled. Then, you'll know the difference. Otherwise, until then, you'll never know. That's not an insult or anything. It just means you haven't heard what your great speakers can do -------- yet. Wait and see..... because I'm sure you'll give it a good try at some point not far down the road. Then, you'll say "Wow! Now, I know EXACTLY what Jeff was saying."

[ben.]

And, no the loud volumes will not damage your hearing because it is not rackety. When your ears can still decipher the code, it just sounds good. But I agree you can go too loud such that damage can be done - if you want. But I will assure you alot of the pain you experience at lower power threshholds is the racket and jumble of all the instruments not playing at their proper proportional loudness. This is racket, sounds like crap, gives you a headache since you can't decipher it easily, and makes you want to turn it down.

The onset of damaging SPL come much before the onset of pain. This statement sheds much light on your perspective. Your advice has become potentially dangerous, and you should stop.

Did you ever stop to think that you're missing the "bottom" half of what your speakers can do, the same half that the designer paid so much attention to, the half that differentiates them from the vast majority of designs?

The ignorance never ceases to frustrate and amaze! I really need to adjust my expectations here. Next thing you know, someone will start lecturing Mark Deneen about distortion....

[meagain]

And, no the loud volumes will not damage your hearing because it is not rackety. When your ears can still decipher the code, it just sounds good. But I agree you can go too loud such that damage can be done - if you want.

This paragraph contradicts itself. Loud volumes won't damage ears if not rackety. But then you say you can CAN go too loud for damage to occur.

Trust me - I don't care how pure & clean the sound is, if physically loud enough - It will damage the ears. And no, it doesn't have to involve pain.

Take a non-swimmer, non-floater in deep water. Drowning will occur in pure clear water same as in a muddy river. It's still drowning, though drowning in pure clear water in a barrier reef might be more entertaining & a better death.

[meagain]

Meagain, you misstated my advice a little, so I want to clear that up. I did not say you need a higher powered amp to sound good even though you don't hear muddled characteristics of the sound as you crank it with your existing amp. I said, even though you don't think you hear a muddled quality, you do. You just don't know what the difference is.

You think it sounds great and clear, but with a higher powered amp (of course a clean one), it will sound sooooo much better and less muddled. Then, you'll know the difference. Otherwise, until then, you'll never know. That's not an insult or anything. It just means you haven't heard what your great speakers can do -------- yet. Wait and see..... because I'm sure you'll give it a good try at some point not far down the road. Then, you'll say "Wow! Now, I know EXACTLY what Jeff was saying."

Jeff - You indeed said most emphatically on the other thread that because my amp was 65 wpc w/a peak of 85, that when I crank it REALY loud - I'm hearing a loss of dynamics and everything will even out and become muddled. That it sounds crappy loud. That the louder I crank it, the lousier it sounds. Period. Wow - You said it here above again.

Now you are saying that I'm just not hearing it. How do you know what I can hear or not? How the heck do you know what's happening in my listening room without being here? You are honestly telling me (and beyond assuming) that I (who is mega anal & picky) and my husband who is a musician cannot TELL we are listening to crap and losing all kinds of stuff (lack of 'dynamics', etc.?). But most importantly, even if we didn't - You don't KNOW this because you're not here. You are stating a hypothetical as a fact.

There is nothing muddled on high volumes. There is no lack of dynamics at high volumes. You are not here. What my issues are with my new khorn purchase span across the board. The issues are there at soft volumes and when louder, they are just - Louder. You are merely speculating & assuming at this point.

Trust me, I'm going to be hauling in every bit of testing/analyzing equipment, amps, etc. that I can get my hands on. I contend that if there's anything wrong with my amp - it would be quality issues at all volumes. Not mere lack of mega WPC causing the issues.

If it sounded pristine at mega volumes - would I crank it higher than a certain level? No.

Can the speakers go louder? Probably. But that doesn't mean I missing out on anything. I didn't buy these because they can go loud (tho a bonus). Nor did I buy them as a PA to toss sound across a football field. I bought them because they have a rep of being a good quality speak at ANY volume. And that's why I invested the cash in them.

[pauln]

Doc wrote "Sure, the analog sounds better but the CD is a better medium...".

I listen to what sounds better.

Pauln

[Jeff Matthews]

Meagain, you misstated my advice a little, so I want to clear that up. I did not say you need a higher powered amp to sound good even though you don't hear muddled characteristics of the sound as you crank it with your existing amp. I said, even though you don't think you hear a muddled quality, you do. You just don't know what the difference is.

You think it sounds great and clear, but with a higher powered amp (of course a clean one), it will sound sooooo much better and less muddled. Then, you'll know the difference. Otherwise, until then, you'll never know. That's not an insult or anything. It just means you haven't heard what your great speakers can do -------- yet. Wait and see..... because I'm sure you'll give it a good try at some point not far down the road. Then, you'll say "Wow! Now, I know EXACTLY what Jeff was saying."

Jeff - You indeed said most emphatically on the other thread that because my amp was 65 wpc w/a peak of 85, that when I crank it REALY loud - I'm hearing a loss of dynamics and everything will even out and become muddled. That it sounds crappy loud. That the louder I crank it, the lousier it sounds. Period. Wow - You said it here above again.

Now you are saying that I'm just not hearing it. How do you know what I can hear or not? How the heck do you know what's happening in my listening room without being here? You are honestly telling me (and beyond assuming) that I (who is mega anal & picky) and my husband who is a musician cannot TELL we are listening to crap and losing all kinds of stuff (lack of 'dynamics', etc.?). But most importantly, even if we didn't - You don't KNOW this because you're not here. You are stating a hypothetical as a fact.

There is nothing muddled on high volumes. There is no lack of dynamics at high volumes. You are not here. What my issues are with my new khorn purchase span across the board. The issues are there at soft volumes and when louder, they are just - Louder. You are merely speculating & assuming at this point.

Trust me, I'm going to be hauling in every bit of testing/analyzing equipment, amps, etc. that I can get my hands on. I contend that if there's anything wrong with my amp - it would be quality issues at all volumes. Not mere lack of mega WPC causing the issues.

If it sounded pristine at mega volumes - would I crank it higher than a certain level? No.

Can the speakers go louder? Probably. But that doesn't mean I missing out on anything. I didn't buy these because they can go loud (tho a bonus). Nor did I buy them as a PA to toss sound across a football field. I bought them because they have a rep of being a good quality speak at ANY volume. And that's why I invested the cash in them.

Well, I'm telling you that at loud volumes - and I mean loud - on your amp, you are hearing loss of dynamics but do not know you are hearing it. That's the best I can say, and I think there is nothing unclear or self-contradicting at all about that statement.

But it was you who, even before you bought the speakers, said you wanted something that would crank the house down, or words of the nature. I assume you meant ..... and be dynamic, too.

If you want to now qualify and change your preferences..... well, good enough.

I know.... I know..... You are a good listener, and H is a musician with a trained ear. I've heard that quite a bit. Try the amp.

[meagain]

Well, I'm telling you that at loud volumes - and I mean loud - on your amp, you are hearing loss of dynamics but do not know you are hearing it.

[] [:@]

[Jeff Matthews]

Another thing, Meagain. It is a little incomplete on your part to say you know your system sounds as good as it will with a high powered, clean amp. How are you capable of saying, despite those musically-trained ears, that A sounds as good a B, when you've never heard B? I'd bet that B will train those ears a little further. You're the one asking about the difference, so clearly, you have not heard the difference. Yet, you insist, with skepticism, that you fear there will be no difference. On the other hand, I've heard the difference. No, not in your house, next to your fireplace, bla...bla...bla... But I'm saying I've heard the difference in all sorts of rooms, and in every room, there's a huge difference.

Now, if you're not inclined to hear the difference, you might as well stop asking or commenting about it and satisfy yourself that "there is none and that's they way it is." Or.... you can see for yourself. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Pure and simple. Maybe you can arrange to test my theory by having someone bring over one of those high-powered amps. Then, you'll only be out a little time.

Reminds me a little of when, many years ago, I was a locksmith. I went to re-key an upstairs condo and could not get in the door. I radioed dispatch and was asked if there was a back door. I had the whole layout pictured in my head so well, I just KNEW there was no back door. I told them "no," and tried all sorts of advice, none of which worked. I finally wimped out and called for back-up help. The guys get there, struggle with me a little, and then, one walks off while the other guy and I keep trying. Next thing I see is the front door open. The guy inside, being a little upset, asks me to follow him - whereupon he showed me the back door that he entered with almost no real effort. How embarrased I was - to say the least. Moral of the story, check out the other avenues as you are told before ruling out possibilities.

I gave you a possibility - which I think is a rather strong one. Remain skeptical if you wish. But I would not count on those musically-trained ears to tell you there will be no difference from something you've never heard before. You simply have no frame of reference.

[Jeff Matthews]

Last post for tonight, meagain, but I want to close with saying, try my suggestion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. Then, you can go onto other tweaks. I just feel very confident, having seen the difference for 20 years in all sorts of rooms, that I'm right.

Try it, and tell me I'm wrong if I am. I can live with that, and you can rest-assured that I will not try to defend my position. I certainly would have no room for argument if you tried it and said it didn't make a serious difference. What would you expect then? For me to say, it sounds great and you don't know it?

Trust me, I'm not that pig-headed.

[Fish]

Wow,this threads gone on a long time so here's my .02.If headrooms got

a sound I suppose its listening so loud you can't stand it no more and

your amp still has not approched clippng.As far as watts,I got a few

hundred per channel and plenty headroom,I also have 75 per ch and

plenty,really plenty head room.By plenty I 'm talkin so loud it could

do permanent damage if exposed for more than a short demo.So,it would

appear headroom in one measure is relative to expectations.

[ben.]

Well, I suppose we could arrange for an MI1200 roadshow, but for the cost of shipping alone we could buy an amp that sounds good on Heritage.

[meagain]

dbl post - sorry