Pop Quiz

[pauln]

No cheating please...

1] On a record, which groove wall is the right channel, which is the left?

2] What is the loudest instrument in the orchestra?

3] Who are the "Three B's"?

[LarryC]

1. I don't know, but would like a good reference on that and on exactly how summing L+R from a stereo cartridge plays mono. I know it has to produce mono, but does L+R sum to only horizontal and not to vertical stylus movement, and how can that be?

2. Just a guess on my part -- the tuba. Trombones and trumpets are very loud, but I wonder if the tuba produces more acoustic power because it's a bass instrument.

3. I'll leave No. 3 to others.

[codhead]

2) Probably something like the picollo. They're REALLY loud (dB wise).

[pmsummer]

1) It was left inside, right outside.

2) Trumpet

3) Bach, Beethoven, Brahms

[pauln]

Larry, the secret is that the two channels are derived from two (or more) coils set at 90 degrees from each other, 45 degrees elevation from the plane of the record surface. Sort of like the cylinders in a V6 engine. The groove walls match this angle. When the walls push the stylus, they push at a 45 degree angle. The only component of motion that the angled coils can detect are the ones aligned for their appropriate channel. Mono pushes both.

Also

Your needle travels about 1 1/2 miles playing just three 33 1/3 rpm records.
After about 1500 plays, your diamond has traveled from Chicago, Illinois, to Birmingham, Alabama.
It's made this trip while being pressed downward at a pressure averaging 16,000 pounds per square inch!
The pressure causes the temperature of the stylus to rise to over 300 degrees Fahrenheit. You never knew your records (even the good ones!) were a torture test, did you?
This pressure and heat momentarily melts the vinyl as the stylus passes by. So, if there is any dust on the stylus or the record it will be baked on to the stylus tip and will certainly rip chunks out of the soft vinyl or shellac. (This will result in irreparable damage to the surface of the record. This damage is what causes the audible ticks and pops).

Question 2 is still open... here's a clue, it's one of the bigger instruments...

[Speedball]

2] The tuba.....[]....?

11/2 miles........wow.

[colterphoto1]

Could I guess the piccolo for the loudest instrument?

[dtel's daughter]

Having worked behind the scenes in my college marching band the tuba would not be my guess while it is a larger instrument it is not that loud when standing next to it and there are usually 4-5 tubas in any marching band I have ever seen. What bothered me the most was the trumpet. Since there are several (anywhere between 5-7) trumpets per band I am guessing that is not it. The fewest instruments in any band are the trombone and the piccolo.... since others have guessed the piccolo I am going with the sweet sounds of the slide trombone.

[maxg]

No cheating please...

1] On a record, which groove wall is the right channel, which is the left?

Inner groove left, outer groove right.

2] What is the loudest instrument in the orchestra?

That would depend on who you ask - usually quoted as Trumpet or Trombone.

3] Who are the "Three B's"?

Bach, Beethoven and Brahms.

[LarryC]

Larry, the secret is that the two channels are derived from two (or more) coils set at 90 degrees from each other, 45 degrees elevation from the plane of the record surface. Sort of like the cylinders in a V6 engine. The groove walls match this angle. When the walls push the stylus, they push at a 45 degree angle. The only component of motion that the angled coils can detect are the ones aligned for their appropriate channel. Mono pushes both.

Yeh, I knew that, but isn't summing the two supposed to generate just the horizontal-motion components and cancel out the products of vertical motion? Just like a mono cartridge generates only signals from horizontal motion? If so, how does it do that?

I couldn't find anything on Google on this subject.

Thanks,

Larry

[Daddy Dee]

Pauln, great thread. Thanks.

[Petrol]

2. well, if the answer is Not the Piccolo...

I'll tell you first hand that a hard hit Snare Drum is one loud SOB!

btw, my second guess would be a Bass Drum, which can be louder then a shotgun when hit hard... Then again, the Flute is pretty damn loud too...

[pmsummer]

When the Dallas Symphony plays at home, the loudest instrument (if it's on the program) is "Frito", the Lay Family Organ.

[LarryC]

I was going to say the pipe organ, except I thought you wouldn't think it was "orchestral." Well, why not -- it only requires already being there, and there are plenty of pieces written for orchestra and the PO.

Even requiring mobility to be an instrument "for the orchestra" is a gray area, since Harry Partch's music required an almost immobile set of instruments that had to be transported by railroad boxcar from site to site for his concerts.

You know Harry Partch: works like "And on the 7th day, the Petals Fell in Petaluma" played on instruments he invented like the gourd tree, bass marimba, the boo [for bamboo], cloud chamber bowls, marimba eroica, and the quadrangularis roverscum/spoils of war, all in a 43-tone scale.

Larry

[pmsummer]

You know Harry Partch:

Larry

Never met him, but I sure like his work. Gamelan meets Spike Jones meets Charles Ives meets John Cage meets Noh theater meets Euripides. America's great "un-modern" contemporary composer.

Thanks for the reminder. I think I'll dig out "Delusion of the Furies" tonight.

[WMcD]

I think the answer to Larry C.'s question is that at least all but the earliest mono disks are recorded with side to side modulation. The groove is a fairly constant depth but waivers from side to side.

The advantage to this is that very strong modulation does not push the stylus directly up out of the groove. It wiggles from side to side.

I agree that the stereo record uses the 45 degree modulation (90 degrees offset from each other total) and indeed the coils are arranged at 45 degees (total 90) to pick up the movement with some independence. This results in stereo separation of course.

The problem here is that a very stong mono signal (common phase in L and R)would result in both sides of the groove going up and down over their 45 degree off set. That would be the equivalent of vertical modulation.

This is what we wanted to avoid. And, if a mono type pick-up, is used, it is sensitive to lateral motion, and would not detect mono signal in a stereo disk at all.

The solution is to cut the disk with one wall of the groove being in reverse polarity. (No, I don't know which one.) Then a strong mono signal (L and R in phase)is actually causing side to side modulation. That polarity is reversed in the coil connection to set things correct..

I believe that the common wisdom what that there was unlikely to be stereo music with strong out of phase identical information in both channels. But that would amount to vertical modulation in a stereo disk.

Gl

[codhead]

Looks like a tie between a clarinet and a trombone, according to this chart.

A clarinet?! They don't list the trumpet - wonder how it compares to the french

horn?

Sound Levels of Music

Normal piano practice

60 -70dB

Fortissimo Singer, 3'

70dB

Chamber music, small auditorium 75 - 85dB

Piano Fortissimo

84 - 103dB

Violin

82 - 92dB

Cello

85 -111dB

Oboe

95-112dB

Flute

92 -103dB

Piccolo

90 -106dB

Clarinet

85 - 114dB

French horn

90 - 106dB

Trombone

85 - 114dB

Tympani & bass drum

106dB

Walkman on 5/10

94dB

Symphonic music peak

120 - 137dB

Amplifier rock, 4-6'

120dB

Rock music peak

150dB

[LarryC]

Looks like a tie between a clarinet and a trombone, according to this chart.

A clarinet?! They don't list the trumpet - wonder how it compares to the french

horn?

I agree with your doubt that a clarinet is as loud as a trombone. I actually think the trombone can outblast any of them (except a pipe organ). The trombone and trumpet each is louder than the french horn, and a rule of thumb for orchestrators is that 1 trumpet or 1 trombone = 2 french horns.

Each of those instruments has a louder (or anyway penerating) and a weaker part of its range. The flute is weak and breathy in its lowest range, but can cut through an entire orchestra in its top two octaves, and of course the piccolo even more so. The oboe is generally strong except in its bottom half-octave, but becomes more penetrating than strong in its top octave.

A clarinet is very strong and penetrating in its lowest range, but quickly gets weakest in its middle range and then becomes relatively strong again in its upper octaves. Not as strong up there as the flute, though.

Some instruments like the bassoon and clarinet almost seem like different instruments in different parts of their range. Great composers are absolute masters at playing relative tone qualities, strengths, and weaknesses against each other in writing their music.

Brass is very strong and penetrating, compared with the woodwinds and strings. Wagner, IMO perhaps the greatest orchestrator of them all, brought his brass into full cry in his most powerful passages.

[pauln]

Well, my source for quiz item #2 loudest instrument is a Musicians Handbook that has a fairly comprehensive review of everything about the orchestra, the individual charateristics of the instruments, keys, music notation, how to score orchestra, all the definitions of the Italian words used to notate the score, counterpoint theory, harmonic theory, melodic theory, ... basically all you can imagine. I gave it to my neice who plays the violin very well.

This book states that the Cello is the loudest instrument in the orchestra (I might have guessed the violin). I tend to think this may be true, especially after I listen to my St. Saens Cello concerto in D (one of my favorites). This is a Russian import album and the cello is LOUD. And beautiful. Maybe the loudest instrument tends to be the solo instrument in a concerto...

I can't really argue with the dB measurements above... I can certainly imagine the loudness of the trombone and clarinet - I've played the b-flat clarinet since third grade and they can be loud.

French horn - played backwards (keyed with the left hand fingers instead of the right like all the other horn instruments). The french horn is probably the most technically difficult instrument to play. It has a very limited range because the tone is closer to a pure sine wave than any other instument, and this partly because you place your unused right hand into the bell. The ability to hit a note on the french horn without getting a false tone is rare - the mouth peices for all the other horns is rather bell shaped and lend lots of room to properly lip the right register, but the french horn has a very narrow flare that makes accurate pitch execution almost impossible. That's why almost all french horn solos consist of either playing just one tone, or sometimes just a few tones. It's so hard, very few professional french horn players can play a simple scale without a pitch flaw. The only instrument I can think of with a more limited range is the bagpipe - 9 notes, not even chromatics - just the 9 tones... on top of the drone horns below.

Pauln

PS This can't be the end - some else please post three questions...

[LarryC]

The solution is to cut the disk with one wall of the groove being in reverse polarity. (No, I don't know which one.) Then a strong mono signal (L and R in phase)is actually causing side to side modulation. That polarity is reversed in the coil connection to set things correct..

I believe that the common wisdom what that there was unlikely to be stereo music with strong out of phase identical information in both channels. But that would amount to vertical modulation in a stereo disk.

Gil, are you saying that stereo disks are cut out of phase? I had no idea. Thanks!

It's still not clear to me, though, how summing L+R by using a mono switch on the preamp/amp will bring out the lateral stylus motion signal but cancels out the vertical signal.

Larry