Arcam ARV300 is in 'da house......

[MarkBK]

Yes - Very close!

Hopefully they'll still have it Saturday and there's not 100 local lurkers vieing for it.

I've actually been there before looking at Paradigms. Talked to an older gentleman with an interesting name. IF I'm thinking of the same place.

Wish they had tube gear.

........ []

Tube Gear in large quantity (and big dollars) - 75th and 355 - Holm Audio, Woodridge. That is where I got the Sherwood R965 to audition. The high end room - I listened to a tube $6500 SACD player with Conrad Johnson CT5 Tube preamp WITH remote (heavy all metal case) control and matching 70 watt / channel amp at $15k using Joseph Audio Pearl speakers ($20k) - a system just over $40k!!!!!

You'll see so much tube gear - you might go blind from the glow! ....and it's liek 20 minutes from your house!

[meagain]

Yes, I should go there... did you see my PM about the Wheaton guy?

[MarkBK]

Yes, I should go there... did you see my PM about the Wheaton guy?

Yep - I just replied. Man the McIntosh's are SOOOOOOOO sweet!

[meagain]

See... The Arcam can't touch them, can they? Fess up.

[MarkBK]

See... The Arcam can't touch them, can they? Fess up.

Its only degrees of difference - kinda like different wines - or different styles of music - is one superior to others? Or do they all have a place.[A]...but the Macs do hold their own [6]

[meagain]

So then what 'type' of sound does the Arcam have vs. the Mc's? Does the Arcam have anything over the Mc's? Or is it a Mcintosh win across the board.

[MarkBK]

So then what 'type' of sound does the Arcam have vs. the Mc's? Does the Arcam have anything over the Mc's? Or is it a Mcintosh win across the board.

To answer that correctly, I'll need to wait until the Arcam is back.....first impression - sound stage is softer on the mac - slightly deeper on the Arcam. Instruments are slightly warmer on the Mac but the Arcam is clean and somewhat tube like as opposed to being cold or analytical sounding. So....does that confuse you enough? I know the tubes sound VERY detailed, but so did the Arcam - just in a slightly different way........[:^)]

[ottscay]

Meagain - I was originally using a $550 Yamaha reciever, no competition there. I also tested a Denon (don't remember which now, was in the $1,000+ range) and a Pioneer Elite. I also heard (but did not test on my system) a Pioneer Elite driving a Sunfire amp, and it didn't sound as good, but that's not really a fair comparison.

I have never A/Bed with tubes. Honestly, at this point I don't really even care, because I enjoy my music enough. I would like to get a better CD player, or a really good universal player (like the new Marantz...) and perhaps eventually a separate amp, but I'm quite happy with the WVR300 as a reciever / future pre/pro to not think about updating it until hi-def audio formats for movies (e.g. Blu-ray_ become prevalent enough to worry about it.

[MarkBK]

Meagain - I was originally using a $550 Yamaha reciever, no competition there. I also tested a Denon (don't remember which now, was in the $1,000+ range) and a Pioneer Elite. I also heard (but did not test on my system) a Pioneer Elite driving a Sunfire amp, and it didn't sound as good, but that's not really a fair comparison.

I have never A/Bed with tubes. Honestly, at this point I don't really even care, because I enjoy my music enough. I would like to get a better CD player, or a really good universal player (like the new Marantz...) and perhaps eventually a separate amp, but I'm quite happy with the WVR300 as a reciever / future pre/pro to not think about updating it until hi-def audio formats for movies (e.g. Blu-ray_ become prevalent enough to worry about it.

otscay,

Well said. I do think it would meet all her needs and then some. I could easily live with just the Arcam for both 2channel and HT and never feel I was missing anything - and coming from me - that speaks volumes......

[meagain]

We're schedule to pick up & test the Arcam tomorrow evening. I've not listened to music today at all so I'm not burned out.

I wish I had an a/b amp switcher, but oh well. Mark - if you have any handy-dandy quick tips for proper setup of switches, etc., that would be great.

Mark - have you considered checking out any of the Rotel stuff? I'm not really reading raves about the sound quality for 2-ch but I understand it's pretty good. I've no clue of the price points on them.

[MarkBK]

We're schedule to pick up & test the Arcam tomorrow evening. I've not listened to music today at all so I'm not burned out.

I wish I had an a/b amp switcher, but oh well. Mark - if you have any handy-dandy quick tips for proper setup of switches, etc., that would be great.

Mark - have you considered checking out any of the Rotel stuff? I'm not really reading raves about the sound quality for 2-ch but I understand it's pretty good. I've no clue of the price points on them.

Meagin - They'll include the manual and remote so it's a breeze to config. I used the 7.1 analog inputs for DVD-A with my Phillips 963a and used the direct button on the front panel to select the direct mode which turns off the other circuits. Yuo can assign inputs to outputs - you'll need to use the monitor out and connect it to your tv to use the on screen setup menus. If I remember correctly, You have to hold the menu button for a few seconds to have the initial set up screen appear. This is where you do all the speaker set up etc for multi channel as well as other settings. Good to review this area just to make sure ther aren't any settings that will color the sound. Then have at it - even with just 2 channels - your Khorns will be smilin' and so will you and hubby....hopefully your sitting down when you start the first song - that way you won't have far to fall when your knocked out by what you hear[]

Re: Rotel - I have friends who run the seperates with B&Ws - its good....but I still think the Arcam sounds better. Three weeks ago, I wasn't even aware of the AVR300....not it's almost my religion...but I still have to visit the Outlaws

A man I know once said: ....it's in the details..........

[meagain]

Well - Now that Arcam is in MY house. Didn't hook it up yet, etc. The guy at the store tried to describe the sound compared to the Rotel which he seemed to like for sound also. He said to his ears the Rotel was better at "rythmic pacing". Huh? I look at hubby who said nothing, I look at the sales guy and say "ok, what the h*ll does that mean?". I never heard that term in any review of anything I've read in my life. LOL He said the Arcam was better at high frequencies (detail?). Anyhoo - we get in the car and hubby laughs... "Rhythmic pacing!!???".

I think the Rotel's look a bit cooler? I don't like the lime colored lights on the Arcam. But it seems to match some of the McIntosh green tones on some of their stuff. Oh - It was the very first time I saw a McIntosh in person. Love the big blue dials even more. I want them.

Also looked at the Tube VTL stuff.

I hope to hear a difference. We're going to try to set it up so we can easily go back/forth between Arcam & HK though I know I'm comparing vastly different price points.

Hubby said if we went with separates - we could always keep the amps and as technology changes - just upgrade the preamps.

Mark - did I ask you what piece makes the big difference in 2-ch type sound quality? The pre owns the magic. Is that right?

[MarkBK]

Well - Now that Arcam is in MY house. Didn't hook it up yet, etc. The guy at the store tried to describe the sound compared to the Rotel which he seemed to like for sound also. He said to his ears the Rotel was better at "rythmic pacing". Huh? I look at hubby who said nothing, I look at the sales guy and say "ok, what the h*ll does that mean?". I never heard that term in any review of anything I've read in my life. LOL He said the Arcam was better at high frequencies (detail?). Anyhoo - we get in the car and hubby laughs... "Rhythmic pacing!!???".

I think the Rotel's look a bit cooler? I don't like the lime colored lights on the Arcam. But it seems to match some of the McIntosh green tones on some of their stuff. Oh - It was the very first time I saw a McIntosh in person. Love the big blue dials even more. I want them.

Also looked at the Tube VTL stuff.

I hope to hear a difference. We're going to try to set it up so we can easily go back/forth between Arcam & HK though I know I'm comparing vastly different price points.

Hubby said if we went with separates - we could always keep the amps and as technology changes - just upgrade the preamps.

Mark - did I ask you what piece makes the big difference in 2-ch type sound quality? The pre owns the magic. Is that right?

Who was the salesman? Rythmic pacing??? Sounds like he could not define it. The downside to the high end store is this kind of cr*p. keep in mind, if budget is not an issue - seperate can be better - and in the Arcam case the AVP700 is the AVR300 preamp section, BUT with better parts AND a 2195 price tage - not bad for a Preamp cost wise, but it just means more cash. One option would be the ARCAM AVP700 for the PRE and then the Outlaw 7125 at 999.00 for 7 channels of 125 real watts per channel. Total cost a little over 3k.

The Pre owns a lot of the magic, but it is a symbiotic relationship between pre and power amp. And, in theory the best is just amplifying the signal without coloration in either pre and power.

Keep in mind, they are not Klipsch dealers - so the speakers they sell are the reference used for the Rotel comments. Let YOUR EARS be the judge........

You need to define what you want to achieve in your system and how much you're willing to spend to get it. It's all about compromise....the higher you go in high end, the more it cost for incremental changes and not all changes are "better" - just different. If you have the money to keep playing with gear, you can go on and on buying and selling.....myself I prefer to concentrate on the music - that's what it is all about and I have achieved the level of satisfaction for 2channel and will soon for 5.1/HT in a system that also does music VERY well. From time to time, you can check back in to see what has improved....but remember - Khorns - 60years and running. My Mac gear 45 years and running....and I haven;t heard anything that makes me think its SIGNIFICANTLY better. I've only heard incremental differences but would have to spend HUGE sums to see modest gains at best......this speaks volumes.

Comments please on your testing or a time as to when I can pick up the Khorns...

[Arky]

Mark

When you get your outlaw shipment do you intend to test multi-channel sources?

Interested in what your ear hears.

JT

[meagain]

Hey Mark! You didn't tell me the Arcam didn't do well on "Rhythmic Pacing"!!! Oh yea - sorry - forgot I never figured out what that was. Nevermind....

We are running things through the DAC on the Jolida JD-100 cd player. This is probably not a good test, but that's where we're at right now.

At first, we're like... Hmmm... sort of a wash. Wasn't bowled over by a major difference. I think it was the type of music we started with. What I'm hearing is vocals. Vocals w/the Arcam are less harsh, more smooth & comfortable. Just sweeter/prettier? We focused on this and put in vocal oriented music. The Arcam is better.

Some guitar, etc. is coming out more. More detail.

When music crescendos with much going on, tons of guitars, drums, etc. at the same time - the Arcam seems to separate it more. Less distortion sounding? More comfy?

However, the bass is the question. I sort of think I like the HK bass better. Seems a bit tighter. But - the Arcam seems to go lower? But more boomy - less tight/distinct?

Still testing. We've been running the gambit from electronic oriented (Depeche Mode), to Sting, Suzanne Vega & now jazz. As we get more minimalistic, the Arcam is showing it's colors better.

We then played around with blind tests. We both like what the Arcam does. Mostly vocals. Less harsh. The question is - we paid $550 for the HK. Not sure what type of deal I can get on the Arcam but it sells for $2k. Let's say if I bought the HK in a real store (not cheap online place (J&R)).... Let's say $600-$650. Is it worth $1400 to upgrade? Hmmm....

That's the question. We're both stoked about getting better sound, but don't know if the HK is good enough for surround - and we should invest the cash in a killer 2-channel system? And, would that extra $1500 render even BETTER than the Arcam? IDK.

I think this CD player is making a big difference to the sound. My guess is if we just relied on the dacs of the avr's - things would be different? I'm sketchy on the mechanics/wireing of sound so I'm speculating?

I've had 2 beers now. This might be a bad thing, but after a few - the separation becomes more clear between the 2 units. Maybe we're just a bit more chilled out and stop over-analyzing & 'feel' things more?

If cash had no factor - no doubt (though I must delve into the bass issue more).... We'd get the Arcam over this. I think we need to listen to some good gear locally. I need to compare the Arcam to other gear, though - Mark... it's sounding like it's up there with your McIntosh tubes so I have to trust that to some extent as I do trust your ears also. Then again, we're listening to 2 different beasts. Khorns vs. newbies.

[MarkBK]

Mark

When you get your outlaw shipment do you intend to test multi-channel sources?

Interested in what your ear hears.

JT

Arky,

Yes I most defintely will be test multi channel SACD, 2 channel and HT. One of the main reasons for looking at the gear I've been testing is mutli channel music AND quality 2 Channel music abilitiies. I love my McIntosh - still hard to beat 40 years after they were manufactured - BUT I find myself too lazy or tired to change cabling for 2 channel tubes and want seperates or the Arcam AVR300 receiver that offer QUALITY sonics for music. The Arcam was a real eye opener - simply the BEST receiver period. I hope the Outlaw is at least as good and some others that were in a blind test of receivers and Pre procs spoke highly of the Outlaw in regards to musical quality. This same group unaminously chose the Arcam AVR300 over the other receivers in the test - but the Outlaw was a slight bit better over the AVR300. The real winner was the $5K Arcam AV8 Pre proc which was rated by the 9 people in the blind test as at least 25% better in sonics. I'll take getting 75% of the best for 1/5th the cost....

[MarkBK]

Hey Mark! You didn't tell me the Arcam didn't do well on "Rhythmic Pacing"!!! Oh yea - sorry - forgot I never figured out what that was. Nevermind....

We are running things through the DAC on the Jolida JD-100 cd player. This is probably not a good test, but that's where we're at right now.

At first, we're like... Hmmm... sort of a wash. Wasn't bowled over by a major difference. I think it was the type of music we started with. What I'm hearing is vocals. Vocals w/the Arcam are less harsh, more smooth & comfortable. Just sweeter/prettier? We focused on this and put in vocal oriented music. The Arcam is better.

Some guitar, etc. is coming out more. More detail.

When music crescendos with much going on, tons of guitars, drums, etc. at the same time - the Arcam seems to separate it more. Less distortion sounding? More comfy?

However, the bass is the question. I sort of think I like the HK bass better. Seems a bit tighter. But - the Arcam seems to go lower? But more boomy - less tight/distinct?

Still testing. We've been running the gambit from electronic oriented (Depeche Mode), to Sting, Suzanne Vega & now jazz. As we get more minimalistic, the Arcam is showing it's colors better.

We then played around with blind tests. We both like what the Arcam does. Mostly vocals. Less harsh. The question is - we paid $550 for the HK. Not sure what type of deal I can get on the Arcam but it sells for $2k. Let's say if I bought the HK in a real store (not cheap online place (J&R)).... Let's say $600-$650. Is it worth $1400 to upgrade? Hmmm....

That's the question. We're both stoked about getting better sound, but don't know if the HK is good enough for surround - and we should invest the cash in a killer 2-channel system? And, would that extra $1500 render even BETTER than the Arcam? IDK.

I think this CD player is making a big difference to the sound. My guess is if we just relied on the dacs of the avr's - things would be different? I'm sketchy on the mechanics/wireing of sound so I'm speculating?

I've had 2 beers now. This might be a bad thing, but after a few - the separation becomes more clear between the 2 units. Maybe we're just a bit more chilled out and stop over-analyzing & 'feel' things more?

If cash had no factor - no doubt (though I must delve into the bass issue more).... We'd get the Arcam over this. I think we need to listen to some good gear locally. I need to compare the Arcam to other gear, though - Mark... it's sounding like it's up there with your McIntosh tubes so I have to trust that to some extent as I do trust your ears also. Then again, we're listening to 2 different beasts. Khorns vs. newbies.

The separation between instruments - sometimes referred to as more "black" around the instruments is what struck me immediately. Leave the unit on until you have to return it - if you can - as it too needs to reach its normal operating temp and can remain that way if you leave it on. Not being tubes its fairly safe to do so and recommended by the stores.

I think the increased separation is you adjusting to the differences - remember many of these are subtle shades of improvement as HK and Denon too are considered fairly musical. Regarding bass - I found it very accurate, reflecting the instruments and recording quality accurately - sometimes to a fault - Peter Gabriel - SO - remastered had some harsh moments, but Peter does have a tendency to push the high end and sound a bit edgy - but this to does and did vary from track to track too.

Acoustic bass - Super Bass 2 - 3 acoustic bass players - sounds awesome - yet all 3 players still remain distinct at all times. go back to earlier recordings now that it has been on for a few hours and listen again to the bass. So, HK tighter or maybe exaggerated in one area vs, the Arcam being more balanced? To me it was more balanced.

To the best of my knowledge - there is NO dealing on the Arcam - it is what it is - $2k. I can tell you the home theater aspect of it - the DSP programming is SCARY great! it WILL not disappoint you there so if that is a factor, bear that in mind. So is it $1400 better - that's up to you two to decide - but give it the next two days to listen - tomorrow - you'll only have to listen, not set up etc.

[Fish]

I just kinda been following this thread to see how its turns

out.I know the HK is a good sounding product,for its price the very

best imo,hey..I got a 635 and chose it over my previous

Denons/Onkyo's/Pioneers etc,for my 2nd room.I would hope the Arcam

would blow it out of the water at least.The Outlaw I had for an

audition was far superior(again imo) to the 635 for sheer musicality,ht

and power.The Outlaw is a great product,the 7125 amp was really the

star,very nice.I've owned speakers before that I know would have been a

great match for the 990/7125 combo.

I've also had a few other units in that were pretty nice for my

audition,the B&K ref50s2 was very nice.The bk was very tweakable

with the kind of adjustments ALL pre/pros should have,very extensive

and well thought out.It also sounded really good,I almost picked it

till my wife said,"well which one did you decide on"? I told her I was

leaning BK for the features,she asked "does it sound the best"?

Well....although I wanted it to the Rotel really sounded slightly

better,just a little smoother on the top end with less grain.In my

perfect/budget set I'd have the Rotel sound BK features,but then that

takes it all up another level.For size the 990,features BK,sound

1068(only my opinion) and although its the smallest it felt as though

it weighed the most.

The main thing for anyone is to audition all you can,you'll be much

more satisfied.I wanted to audition an Arcam 300 and 700 but no dealers

in my area for 75 miles and shown by appointment only to boot made it

not a good option even for support.I did discuss extensively the Arcams

with the dealer and he was knowledgeable of the units I was

audioning.Although he clearly thought the Arcams were superior he also

conceded that the difference I could expect was very suttle and

subject to personal taste.Here's a pic of the last 3 units I had in.I'm looking forward to your shootout,let us know,good luck.

[meagain]

Good morning!

Fish - Nice post.

Mark - This may be a dumb question... Did you have your cd player (assuming you were using it) hooked up to where the DAC in the Arcam was running the show? Or vice versa?

I'm gleaning the DAC is where the magic comes from? Very important? We're running things via relying on the Jolida cdp DAC which is supposed to be:

24 Bit DAC with latest Philips and Burr-Brown chip sets

The Website says: 24/96 Burr Brown DAC.

IDK what type of DAC the Arcam has, but I guess we should hook it up so the Arcam DAC is in charge? Perhaps the Arcam DAC is better? Am I making any sense?

[MarkBK]

Good morning!

Fish - Nice post.

Mark - This may be a dumb question... Did you have your cd player (assuming you were using it) hooked up to where the DAC in the Arcam was running the show? Or vice versa?

I'm gleaning the DAC is where the magic comes from? Very important? We're running things via relying on the Jolida cdp DAC which is supposed to be:

24 Bit DAC with latest Phillips and Burr-Brown chip sets

The Website says: 24/96 Burr Brown DAC.

IDK what type of DAC the Arcam has, but I guess we should hook it up so the Arcam DAC is in charge? Perhaps the Arcam DAC is better? Am I making any sense?

Good Morning to you too!

I ran my modified Phillips 963a direct to the 7.1 analog inputs with the front panel buttons for DVD-A and Direct selected. Of course the Analog inputs were "assigned" to the DVD-A button by default so it made that easy - The direct button turns off all the other circuits and offer optimum sound for analog inputs. What all this means is that the CD player (or in my case the SACD/DVD/CD player) is doing the all the work. from the DAC perspective. The Burr-Brown dac is well respected - used by many including Denon - but I honestly do not know the Jolida from a listening experience - I've read good things about them, but have never heard them.

My Phillips also has the ability to upsample to 192 which does sounds exceptionally good on most recordings.

Yes you are making sense, but perhaps may be setting expectations higher than you should. In spite of anything any of us say - try to approach listening with no preconceived expectations (I know you saying - yeah right Mark) and just listen. It's in the details. Use your ears to judge what you find appealing and what is most important - after all your the one that has to live with the choice you make - not me or anyone else here. We'll gladly share our opinions - right or wrong [6]!!!! What's right to me may not be to you,etc.( I still think Arcam is the ANSWER for an all in one)

The main choice you and hubby have to make is this: Do you want one system for music and Home Theater - or two dedicated system front ends for your Khorn centric speaker system. If it's one system, then the Arcam does an outstanding job for both - but separates - costing more of course may do better. (Crazy hobby this audio is!)

Now all that said - the DAC in the Arcam is designed by Arcam - software is too - but built by Wolfson - and is considered outstanding. Check the manual for assigning and try it if you can.