Crazy projector prices

[Tom Adams]

Mebbe this shoulda been in the HT forum, but what the heck......

Have you guys seen projector prices lately?? AE900U's going for $1850 with a $400 dollar rebate!! Optoma H31's for $850?? You gotta be kidding me! I realize that a FP system is not for everybody, but good grief - how could it NOT be??? I'm serious, how in the world can folks justify $5000 on a 65" RPTV when for $2K they can throw a damn fine 96" image?

But the real question is how in the hell can manufacturers justify $9K for a projector when ya got the AE900U and the PLV-Z4 that are very very close in PQ for under $2000??

Anyhow - everytime the lights come down, I'm glad I made the move to FP.

Have a nice day now, ya hear. []

Tom

[customsteve01]

Tom,

I have been trying to figure out a way to use a projector in my living room and not buy a $5000.00 RPTV. The price difference is crazy Don't they pretty much use the same projector just the TV has a box around it???

Steve

[Daddy Dee]

I've noticed that too. Alot of bang for the buck to be had with projectors... and it's only going to get better in price/quality ratio.

[Tom Adams]

Tom,

I have been trying to figure out a way to use a projector in my living room and not buy a $5000.00 RPTV. The price difference is crazy Don't they pretty much use the same projector just the TV has a box around it???

Steve

Hey Steve - I'm sure there's more to it than that, but you're probably not too far off. And I can imagine that it must be frustrating trying to figure out how to make a FP work in a room if the room is not a dedicated HT room. BUT - yer a smart fella an Imma shure you'll figger it out, uh-huh. []

Tom

[customsteve01]

My problem is the size of the room. from where the projector would be to the screen would be only about 10 feet. Could be closer to 13 feet if I get rid of the entertainment center that my current TV is in, but then I have to find something to do with that big piece of furniture. I guess I could try and sell it. If I keep it I also have to figure out a way to hang a screen in front of it. The wife wants to keep it and just put the screen up for movies and watch the TV we have for regular viewing.

If you haven't figured this out yet I look and look and look before I buy. I just hate going and getting something and then finding something that I would have liked better. The problem with this is they are always comming out with better and cooler things and it really makes it hard to throw down the money knowing that in a couple of weeks they might come out with something new.

I have been really looking at the new Sony SXRD TV's with 1080P but the fact that they do not accept a 1080p input has me stumped, I mean with the new HD DVD's comming out and all I don't want to buy one and then find out that if I would have waited a little longer I could have something that will accept the new format.

Sometimes I just want to quit looking. AAAUUUGGGHHHHH....

Steve

[Tom Adams]

Steve -

Go here: http://www.carada.com/Projection-Screen-Reviews.aspx and scroll down until you see Tom Lessard's setup. Not sure this will work, but it's a thought. From I remember, this guy has some small white hooks in the ceiling and the screen is attached to the hooks via turn buckles (I'm assuming to level out the screen). Now....what in the world he does with the screen when not hung I don't know.

Is a motorized drop down an option??

Tom

[rplace]

Wow! 1850 minus 400. That is a killer deal. I have not been keeping an eye on prices lately. I got a 700 when they first came out for a little over $2K. Great projector, I assume the 900 is better based on the specs, but have not seen on in action.

[sfogg]

"Wow! 1850 minus 400. That is a killer deal."

And a card for I think 40 rentals at Blockbuster. I bit on this deal in Feb though I haven't received the rebate yet. (They are slow....)

Compared to the 700 the 900 uses D5 LCD panels with a little bit higher native contrast and a more aggressive IRIS system to get about double the contrast ratio. The D5 panels are set to have less VB too but it is still there on some units. I get a touch on mine.

From there the 700/900 are more alike then not.

What will be *really* interesting is when the C2 Fine panels make it into the units. The CR is going to go through the roof when that happens.

And 1080p of course too.

Getting a good relatively inexpensive unit and then upgrading it every couple of years seems like a better plan to me then spending $$$$$ on a unit as this point.

Shawn

[sfogg]

"and scroll down until you see Tom Lessard's setup. Not sure this will work, but it's a thought. "

I have my Carada hung in roughly the same manor... though no turnbuckles... didn't need them.

I wanted the screen about 23" off the front wall. I hid the ductless mini-split heat pump behind the screen as well as the LFE subwoofer.

Shawn

[Tom Adams]

In November of 2005 I paid $2100 out the door for my AE900U and that included a $300 rebate (i.e. $1800 out the pocket) and $200 worth of rentals at Blockbuster. And I thought THAT was a great deal.

Can't say how the 900 compares to the 700, but the A/V folks that did my projector install/tweak have, and continue to, rave about the PQ. In fact, the owner of the A/V store mentioned to me that his guys told him he NEEDED to carry this projector. And the only issue he has in carrying the 900U was trying to talk customers into $5K or $7K or more projectors when the 900U is so good.

Anyhow....what I think is so great about this price drop is that it presents a viable option other than a flat panel TV for folks that want a big picture but don't want a big cabinet. With a little creativity, a FP system can be very stealthy which is something even a flat panel can't do.

Tom

[efzauner]

50 and 60 inch RPTVs are no longer 5K. But yes, it is amazing at the price drop. The first Sony RPTVs came out in summer 2003 and prices dropped by almost half 2 years later. By getting rid of the darn projection tubes and upping the volume, they have managed to drop the price.

As for RPTV, yes it is a projector in a box, but a bloddy huge box. Think of the cost involved of making that big box: huge injection modling tooling costs, Cost of the big display class, shipping all the parts to the manufacturer, floor space for manufacturing, labor in assembly. Compare that to a small projector made on a conveyor belt. Compare the cost of shipping a 60' rptv from asia vs a small projector. Factor in at home warranty repair for a year or two as well.

[rplace]

Getting a good relatively inexpensive unit and then upgrading it every couple of years seems like a better plan to me then spending $$$$$ on a unit as this point. Shawn

Agree totally. You could buy several of them at 2K a pop and still not be out the coin of some models out there.

When I was designing/building my room I was all set to spend $10-20K on a Runco. I figured I wanted to do it right and do it once. Once I saw the 700 in action I could not even think about the runco. I figured if I used the 700 till the bulb when and threw it away I would still be ahead of the game. My 700 is still going strong and never disappoints. People who rip on LCDs for black issues have not looked at projectors in the last couple of years.

At this price I sure would like to go with the 900, but seems foolish when the 700 is such a good performer. I might have to with next years model if the performance keeps going up and the price keeps coming down.

Shawn, do you (did you) have a 700 in the past...or did you just see a 700/900 side by side?

[Tom Adams]

Getting a good relatively inexpensive unit and then upgrading it every couple of years seems like a better plan to me then spending $$$$$ on a unit as this point. Shawn

Agree totally. You could but several of them at 2K a pop and still not be out the coin of some models out there.

When I was designing/building my room I was all set to spend $10-20K on a Runco. I figured I wanted to do it right and do it once. Once I saw the 700 in action I could not even think about the runco. I figured if I used the 700 till the bulb when and threw it away I would still be ahead of the game. My 700 is still going strong and never disappoints. People who rip on LCDs for black issues have not looked at projectors in the last couple of years.

At this price I sure would like to go with the 900, but seems foolish when the 700 is such a good performer. I might have to with next years model if the performance keeps going up and the price keeps coming down.

Shawn, do you (did you) have a 700 in the past...or did you just see a 700/900 side by side?

I'm absolutely on the same wavelength with you guys. I bet I argued this point 5 times with my A/V (and Klipsch) dealer. Initially they tried to sell me on a $4k Yamaha unit and I'd counter with units that had equal or better specs (info I got from Projector Central) and cheaper prices. I finally had to tell them I was stubborn, was set in my ways, and they were pissing up a rope trying to get me to buy anything other than the 900U. So they either sold me the unit or I'd get it elsewhere. To be honest, I could've gotten the unit cheaper, but was willing to pay the extra $200 for the peace of mind of not having to deal with the thing should it be a bad unit or damaged.

Anywho....I have little doubt that in about 2-3 years there will be $2K units employing the technology that todays' $7000 units have.

Tom

[sfogg]

" You could but several of them at 2K a pop and still not be out the coin of some models out there."

And with the way everything has been progressing end up with a better unit at 2k then the far more expensive unit of a few years back. I replaced what was originally around a $16,000 JVC DILA and I prefer the Panasonic in almost every way.

The black level is a lot better then it has been but could still be improved of course. DLP still has an edge there. DLP drives me batty though so I couldn't go with it.

Do you run a filter on your AE700? I run the 81EF on mine. That cuts the black level about in half and improves contrast further.

"I might have to with next years model if the performance keeps going up and the price keeps coming down."

If they get the C2 Fine panels that should be a *big* jump in performance. The native CR of the D4 panels (AE700) is around 600:1-1000:1ish, the D5s native CR is around 700:1-1200:1ish. The C2 Fine panels (in RPTVs) come in at around 8000:1-11000:1. Imagine that coupled with a dynamic iris and instead of being 'pretty good' that would pretty much lead the field.

"Shawn, do you (did you) have a 700 in the past...or did you just see a 700/900 side by side?"

Neither actually. The CR info is just by going from the many measurements posted in the various AE700 and AE900 tweaks threads. From what I've read if you are happy with the AE700 I'd keep it and wait to see what the next generation brings from Panasonic.

Shawn

[sfogg]

Tom,

" but was willing to pay the extra $200 for the peace of mind of not having to deal with the thing should it be a bad unit or damaged."

I bought mine from Projector People online. They were great to deal with. My first unit had a big green blob on the picture (dust I assume) and they overnighted me a replacement unit and sent me a return label to get the bad one back. Seemed like a very good company to work with.

Also, Costco has been selling the AE900 on occasion. Costco offers basically a lifetime no questions asked return policy. If a unit ever died you can just bring it back to them.

Shawn

[colterphoto1]

"Hey Steve - I'm sure there's more to it than that, but you're
probably not too far off. And I can imagine that it must be
frustrating trying to figure out how to make a FP work in a room if the
room is not a dedicated HT room. BUT - yer a smart fella an Imma shure
you'll figger it out, uh-huh.

Tom"

Thanks Tom, this made me smile!

Michael

[Tom Adams]

Shawn - Out of the box, I thought the black levels were pretty decent on my 900. But I did see what folks talked about when watching something like the stary sky in Star Wars. What should be black was a very very dark grey.

And then we tweak the colors using an Avia disc and OMG!!!!!!!

When watching a Star Wars night sky it's darn near impossible to tell where the image stops and the "black bars" begin. I can't imagine what that 81 EF filter would do.

Are you running in low lamp mode?

Tom

[rplace]

" Do you run a filter on your AE700? I run the 81EF on mine. Shawn

No, I do not. Tell me more about this - please.

I totally dug the 700 out of the box. Then tweaked it a bit with the S&V and Avia DVDs and never looked back.

I am still running my constant height set up with manual zoom for different aspect ratio movies/TV on my 2.35 to 1 screen. You got me interested in a scaler a while back...but turntables, tubes and 2-channel has consumed me for a while. I am getting the re-bitten by the video bug I think. I recently when with DirecTV's HD service. Sopranos in HD with wider format is a nice to have sort of thing.

So what can I explore in the scaler and filter line of thinking???

[sfogg]

Tom,

"When watching a Star Wars night sky it's darn near impossible to tell where the image stops and the "black bars" begin."

What black bars?

I run a constant height setup with a 2.35AR screen (and an anamorphic lens) so movies like Star Wars fills the screen.

"Are you running in low lamp mode?"

Yup, low lamp mode. How dark is the rest of your room? If there is a little light in the room it can 'hide' the black level of the projector. My room is basically a bat cave. Black velvet drapes covering the first half of the room up to the screen, dark dark carpeting, black ceiling, dark red velvet drapes in the back half of the room. The velvet makes the room spooky. You can dim down the lights (still on though) and literally no longer be able to see where the walls are.

Don't get me wrong, I'm OK with the black level of the AE900 but it isn't perfect. Perfect is when you put up a fade to black scene and when it is black you can't do shadow puppets on the screen. No digital projectors really can pass that test yet.... though neither can a film projector.

BTW, if you haven't played with it try some of the setting combinations listed here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=589234

Shawn

[sfogg]

"No, I do not. Tell me more about this - please. "

The UHP lamp in the projectors has too much blue in it. Put up a black picture in a dark room and look at it for a little bit. You may notice there is too much blue in the black.

You can't really correct for that (at 0 IRE) in the settings in the projector. You can correct for too much blue at higher IRE with the settings in the projector but in doing so you end up in effect loosing some contrast. (if you keep the grey scale balanced)

An optical filter can help to color correct the projector without needing to do it as much electronically which helps give you the full capacity of the panels... which means more CR. And since the filter also blocks some light it means better black levels without as much blue in them. Literally on the Panasonics the actual measured CR (not the specs claimed contrast) nearly doubles with the filter as compared to without. You do loose some brightness with the filter though so depending upon your setup a different filter might be a better combo for you.

See this thread for example on the AE700....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=465849

This is for the AE900 but the idea is the same on the AE700.

http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/200510/ae900-ckl/index.htm

Notice the contrast ratios with and without the filter.

For the $55 a filter costs (from B&H Photo) it is a worthwhile tweak to try. I've run mine with the 81EF pretty much since the projector was new.

Shawn