Bought XLR Cables from Pre Amp to the AMP.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Many of you know there is/ has always a debate here to use RCA cables vs XLR ones. Especially in shorter runs. We know and understand in longer runs why XLR's are used for noise and that can be shown (heard) too.

I bought the Sunfire Theatre Grand IV and the Sunfire Signature 200 x 7 amp for the dedicated HT in my basement. Still doing minor tweaking to the room although everything works and is / has been a wonderful project to finally get to enjoy too.

So I saw some cables yesterday.... You know the typical "hype" even at a musical instrument store. Single cables run from a cheap 8 dollars to 80 dollars (or more) each in the 3 to10 feet range. While I only needed 3 feet at most, the dilema of 7(channels) x 8 = 56 or 7 x 80= 560 (or more dollars) to me seemed silly!! I already had pretty good RCA cables. (IXOS)

Now, avoiding cheap (and they felt like it too) Hosa XLR cables I stumbled across Pro Co Accusound (hand made in the USA) 8 males xlr and 8 females xlr's in a snake that was 10 feet long for 132.49 dollars marked down to 82.99 at Sam Ash Music. OK, take a deep breath.. go for it.. Even though you feel most of this is hogwash anyhow ROGER. I swore I would try them and be unbiased... and would take them back if it was money spent foolishly IMO.

OK, those of you that have suggested this,,, OK you are right.. No comparison to even expensive IXOS RCA cables that were thrown in with my Sunfire purchase.

So, what did I hear..???

Lower lows.. deeper, louder, and the sound stage really opened up wider, bigger, fuller too. In dis belief I switched em back.. hmm wow this is real, so I switched them again.. wow.. OK, one last time.. RCA then XLR... OK, I will keep the XLR's.

I do think a lot of these tweaks like this are sometimes smoke and mirrors. ( I bought Monster Speaker Wire for all of the runs to the 7 La Scalas... I also used it for runs for the other system too.) In truth, can I tell any HUGE difference between it and lamp cord? Not so sure.. We had a lamp cord vs a 10k dollar pair of speaker wire at the Klipsch weekend 2 years ago... No one else could either.... A person certainly could of spent 560 dollars or who knows thousands of dollars on XLR connections? But at what point is it just hype, and at what point can you hear something too? At 82.99 it was very noticeable with the XLR's over the RCA's. They seemed louder, cleaner, and found some bass in my La Scalas I did not have before? (Always a good thing with La Scalas. LOL) Go Figure?? (BTW, I still had the same beautiful smooth mids and highs too.)

So bottom line? This was a very economical way of trying it out if you have XLR outputs out of your pre amp and into your power amp, I highly suggest this route. I have one open channel or if your sub amp would take a XLR input, your set there too. 8 male and 8 female XLR connectors with a cable company that makes them in the USA that also guarantees it for life. (yes life.) Go for it. Might be the best under 100 tweak to that system your looking for! (why companies do not offer it as a add on is beyond me?) You would think if the engineers thought it was important enough to include XLR outputs and Inputs... They could sell you interconnects as well with the pre amp name on them??

My 2 Cents..

Roger

[IndyKlipschFan]

OK, pummel me now for bringing this up!

hahahaahahahaha

[colterphoto1]

vIndy, very good idea for using the mini snake approach. That probably got you better cables and shielding for much lower price. I'd like to A/B with you about those improvements, but know that going more heavy sure never hurt anyone and the extra shield, especially with all of your gear is probably not a bad move.

Michael

[ccsakura]

Many companies limit the XLR connection available only to their flagship or higher end products.... (or say, more expensive). I guess the cost of putting those XLR into there is not a lot but marketing issue. Those real balanced XLR should be connect to the system BEFORE reaching the conversion of unbalanced, the cost should be even lower for that by assumin the connectors cost the same. And I guess many cable company can make more money out of unbalanced cable and force the electronics doing the same? []

[IndyKlipschFan]

I am surprised not more chimed in here.. But I also know this just might be a try it and see for yourself thing. I do agree with pro audio gear you see the XLR connections.. So makes sense to me must be a good reason to try it? AGAIN, the engineers thought it was important enough to include it.

The snake idea for others is the big home run here. 8 MXLR's and 8 FXLR's. and under 100 bucks. Very clean, good pro gear used in the studios, USA company all good stuff.

I swear, though, I have a LOT more bottom end in the La Scalas...With the XLR's. (Maybe the current transfer is better, who knows?) And like I said before in La Scalas..... always a great thing to have good solid bottom ends too. LOL. I played a LP record last night and OMG off of that Sunfire Theater grand IV pre amp.. I just was in awe.. I can't go back top LP's after all of this time.. But a few once in a while is just awesome. And frankly I have not heard a lot of them in years..

[jbsl]

My Luxman int amp has a balanced connection for a cd player,etc but not for going to a amp. The next model up has the conection for the amp in balanced.

All of Luxmans new preamps and amps have the balanced conections and I would really love to get some of that gear. But the Luxman L505f I bought was their bottom line int amp and it was $2500 and I use it just as a preamp. Their preamps and amps start at $4000 and go up to around $20,000 so probably not going to be getting any of it soon.

I'm going to Japan next month and I could probably find some of Luxmans equiment for about 1/3 less than in the US but I don't have the money it's all going to pay for the trip.

Do you know of any cd players that have good reviews that has a balance out? I've been thinking of getting the AH!SuperTjoeb cd player but they don't have balanced out but still want to try it.

The main thing in this addiction I mean hobby is that if you like it and it makes you happy then it is money well spent!!

[mmiles]

XLR's are also used in the "PRO" world because they are not easily "kicked out" of say a mic or a stage amp since most good XLRs lock.

Regards,

Mike

[damonrpayne]

I have always heard that XLR was mostly good for noise. Do you hear less speaker hiss out of your LaScalar horns now?

[IndyKlipschFan]

Yes, I do. The La Scalas are soo efficient, that was one reason I tried them Damon.

[DrWho]

XLR's are also used in the "PRO" world because they are not easily "kicked out" of say a mic or a stage amp since most good XLRs lock.

Good unbalanced 1/4" Jacks have a locking mechanism too...

[DrWho]

I swore I would try them and be unbiased... and would take them back if it was money spent foolishly IMO.

OK, those of you that have suggested this,,, OK you are right.. No comparison to even expensive IXOS RCA cables that were thrown in with my Sunfire purchase.

So, what did I hear..???

Lower lows.. deeper, louder, and the sound stage really opened up wider, bigger, fuller too. In dis belief I switched em back.. hmm wow this is real, so I switched them again.. wow.. OK, one last time.. RCA then XLR... OK, I will keep the XLR's.

I do think a lot of these tweaks like this are sometimes smoke and mirrors......

Just one idea to throw out there...the circuitry involved with the balanced connection is different than the circuitry involved with the unbalanced connection. And I have no reason to doubt that sunfire put better components into the balanced signal circuitry. So in essence it isn't really an apples to apples comparison.

The entire reason unbalanced connections were created in the first place is because they are much cheaper and way back in the day this price difference was a big enough concern to deal with all the noise issues. In the ideal world all cable runs would be balanced connections.

Also, I think it is important to point out how important a low noise floor is in relation to the overall sound. Even though certain levels are "inaudible" it still makes a big difference...

[IndyKlipschFan]

dr Who..

So what your saying, just might be what I am hearing, too. They now have a cleaner and perhaps hotter as well level out of the pre amp. Hmm Even more reason to enjoy them!!

Louder Cleaner... Always a good thing!!

[Kriton]

Hey,

Weighing in...I too have the balanced XLR's from amp to pre...but in

the my research on Sunfire, it was my understanding that the XLR jacks

on the Sunfire's are NOT true balanced jacks...something about the

internal wiring basically going the same place, not having a balanced

circuit...something like that -

If you haven't done already done a search, go to AVSForum or the

audiocircle and search for the Sunfire balanced XLR's; you will find

it... I never used the RCA jacks and don't have a reference here...

Love these components though...

K

[IndyKlipschFan]

One other thought too... A good friend.. (Trey) also thought the output from the XLR's might be 6 db hotter as well. The only draw back to the Sunfire Theater Grand IV Pre amp (IMO) is the bass output from the RCA sub outputs is a little low..(signal wise) into my Klipsch KA 1000 amp to power the 2 subs.. For a Ultra 2 pre amp to a Ulta 2 sub amp.

Klipsch uses the Ultra 2 signal standard as the reference for the Ultra 2 KA- 1000 Sub AMP. This signal is hotter than a regular pre amp one out of a regular system to the sub amp. I have heard these incredible subs with the Amp too... with the Aragon Gear at Klipsch and at my house as well.

I just KNOW it should be louder... on my Radio Shack SPL meter, it shows the perfect match, thank goodness, at the settings turned all the way up. That said, I am off to the audio store to look and see if I find the XLR output cable to the sub amp using the XLR out RCA in stereo wise might give me the little extra I so desire sometimes. (More clean bass) I will let you know my findings too.

[theplummer]

I've been using el-cheapo rat shack XLR's now for a few years on my Sunfire with outstanding results. I've been told that there is not a 6DB gain, but rather the noise floor is lowered by 6DB. I've found this to be more the case.

Now if you really want those scala's to sing, pony up to the signature series amp. 400 wpc gives an unbelievable amount of headroom on this amp and your efficient speakers will reward you handsomley.

[keepinitcool]

There are a few ways the balanced XLR connections are used. For pro applications it is to reject noise on long runs, and the connectors are better quality and connect better.

However, if you look, you will find some products that are fully balanced. Amplifiers that are fully balanced take the two hot pins and amplify both signals and have a differential output. So both speaker terminals are hot, they are just inverse of each other.

Other products just convert the unbalanced to balanced as it goes out the XLR jack, or convert the balanced signal to unbalanced as it comes in the XLR jack.

There is supposed to be a 6db gain in unbalanced versus balanced, since the balanced contains two signals of the same magnitude versus one signal for the unbalanced.

[Q-Man]

I have McIntosh amps, and a Parasound Halo C1 processor and they have balanced connections. I havn't tried the balanced outputs on the processor yet, because the guys on the Parasound forum claim that all they get is a 6db gain and that it is too much for the ones with efficient speakers.

I guess I should try it one day and see what I think.

[Rudy81]

I will add my experience here with XLR. I run all Parasound HALO gear in my system. When I purchased the system, I use RCA for a little while while my $400 worth of XLR cables came in. When I put those on, I could clearly hear hiss from all my speakers, in particular my Belles, which were later replaced by Khorns, and the La Scala center. I did quite a bit of troubleshooting and eventually sent my HALO gear back to get checked out. I eventually ended up having direct discussions on the subject with the president of Parasound. They did an excellent job of troubleshooting the problem. The problem, in my case, is that the XLR section of the C2 is not a "true" balanced section. The balanced connections are taken from the unbalanced section and boosted by 6dB, and then "converted" to balanced. (I know these are not the technical terms, but this is how it was explained to me.)

As it turns out, there was absolutely nothing wrong with my gear. Parasound had never tested the system with speakes as efficient as ours, and so never heard the hissing. They spent quite a bit of time me reproducing the problem with my unit, and other units. This balanced design is common in higher end gear and works for most folks, but not for me. They told me it would be cost prohibitive to make two entirely separate sections, one balanced and one unbalance in one system. So, to appeal to the mass market, they use this "hybrid" system.

In my case, the hiss is clearly audible from my sitting position, particularly with the Khorns. So, I went back to the unbalanced and have been happy ever since. I would guess your systems design is very similar since price points are close for those units.

[mdbrien]

I'm glad someone started this thread because I know alot of people really don't believe there's a difference. I have an Aragon 8008BB amp with an Aragon Aurum Preamp. I use Nordost Blue Heaven XLR cables. HUGE improvement!!