Chi/IN/KY meeting

[colterphoto1]

they're on the long wall, in the corners[]

[Woodog]

Woodog - are the khorns on the 19 or 11 foot wall?

When I first got them I had them on the 11' wall. They sounded great to me, too! And then I read in a thread where Khorns liked the long wall, so I rearranged everything and moved them to the long wall......

WOW! what a difference.

One thing I have noticed... when the same advice keeps coming at you consistently from this group of folks, the klipschaholics, you can pretty much bank on it being correct advice.

Woo

[colterphoto1]

Hi Forrest, thanks again for the time at your place. I'd be interested you your take on Todd's system, since you've spent so much time there. And do you think my and Doc's points are valid?

M

[colterphoto1]

Woo sez:

"One thing I have noticed... when the same advice keeps coming at you

consistently from this group of folks, the klipschaholics, you can

pretty much bank on it being correct advice."

AMEN to that brother! Took me eons to get over that timbre-matching concept, now I preach it.

[Woodog]

Dr. Who,

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Heres the stuff of mine played to show off the system

Paul Winter: Prayer for the Wild Things, end of track 8/intro to track 9

(contra-bassoon playing a low C fundamental around 31hz)

AR Rahman: Vande Mataram, track 7

(a very thickly layered bass heavy composition)

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Kama Sutra: Tale of Love, Original Movie Sountrack, track 14

(thunderous drums morphing into a delicate guitar)

I was turned on to this material by Seti. The entire disk is an AMAZING collection of well recorded miniatures, each of which are fine compositions. I cant recommend this one highly enough.

Anuna: Omnis, track 3 (choral music with harp accompaniment)

Bela Fleck: Tales From the Acoustic Planet, Vol. 2, the Bluegrass sessions

Track 4: Spanish Point

Rickie Lee Jones: Pop Pop, track 6: Dat Dere

(incredible imaging on this one)

The Sound of Kings: Choirs of Kings College, Cambridge

Track 15, Agnus Dei from Durufles Requiem

(not heard on this track was the contra-bourdon, a soft 32 pedal stop near the end too low for the khorns)

I wish you had been able to hear the Cornwalls at the church. They are augmented by a sub tuned to 19hz. The room reverberation is wonderful there, ~1 second, no parallel surfaces, with lower frequencies having a slightly slower decay, and the 35' seperation of the Corns really shows them off. I often go and listen to music there. They are driven by a 70's Onkyo SS receiver and they sound really fine until you get to that clipping point, that is.

They make an incredible P.A. system.

Woo

[Woodog]

Hi Forrest, thanks again for the time at your place. I'd be interested you your take on Todd's system, since you've spent so much time there. And do you think my and Doc's points are valid?

M

Michael,

Short comment:

I think Todd's system sounds fantastic!

Longer comment:

Slapback echo. I hadn't even considered that or noticed it, but I'll listen for it the next time I'm over there. Once I had figured out my particular room resonances (bump at 130 Hz for one) they bugged me for a bit and sometimes they still do if I fixate on it. Usually, like Who said... sometimes you should just 'shup and listen to the music'.

I've seen several amps/preamps come and go with Todd so far, and I like the combo that he has now. I took my 208 (7591 based tube amp) over and we compared it straight up to your Crown, I think. The SS amp had much more muscular bass than the tubes, but like you said 'it's home, I'm used to it' and wouldn't swap it out in my system for SS. I *seriously* like the Peach, both for cosmetic appeal but more importantly how it really opened up the sound. I'm a huge fan of how his system sounds now, and I have a feeling it's a home theater system in process. []

The Dbx unit he has is a neat toy, I'll have to say. I understand what it does and I like the coloration it brings to the LaScalas... it's sort of like a loudness button, more fleshing out of the sound at lower volumes. A little goes a long way, though.

On the other hand, I take a system for what it is too. I have Heresys at work, and they are what they are. I love 'em. I have Cornwalls at the church with Solid State and a sub - they are what they are. I don't try to turn the Heresys into Khorns any more than I try to turn my 1985 Japanese steel bike into a Trek Madonne.

I could take a potato and put it in a tomato bed, shower it with tomato fertilizer, optimize the light for tomato growth, and even give it the finest of tomato dirt, but at the end of the day, I wouldn't have a tomato. I'd still have a potato. Hey! Potatos are good! Yummm... gimme some sour cream!

I'm notorious for wanting to rearrange speakers to get it 'just right' if possible, and Todd's house was no exception. But, I really held myself back. Other than wanting to (at the time) move the right side Cornwall out more and more I held back. Todd may disagree, but I did. With the LaScalas there was no problem getting the sweet spot and the accompanying sweet imaging which I crave. ( I really do )

I've enjoyed Todd's system since he had the B&K. With the Peach and the Aragon it is that much better. I wasn't such a fan of the Adcom, but neither was he. Ultimately he is the one who needs to be satisfied with the sound, not me. []

Every improvement has, as DeanG said, been a step forward.

Your suggestion about getting more music to listen to is spot on. (to use one of your colloqualisms) Todd, do it! []

Now, after your comment about the resonance, I want to try and rearrange the room, not because it sounds bad (it doesn't, it sounds great) but because of the promise of how it *might* sound.

I was writing to Todd about how I had shown my system to my older brother Hollis, a rather successfull recording engineer in Nashville who has an incredible set of ears on him.

Here's part of what I wrote:

Honestly, praise or lack of praise doesn't really affect me one way or another. It's one of the benefits of getting older (ok, hell, BEING old), I suppose. I have what I have and it is what it is. The music has become therapy since Klipsch came into the house.

My brother Hollis, the recording engineer who has worked with many 'celebrities' (Ricky Skaggs, Marie Osmond, Bobby Hicks, Vern Gosdin, George Jones, Bela Fleck) either recording or mixing their work on some of the very finest digital equipment (and very old, hotly sought after tube microphones) Nashville has in its arsenal, heard my Klipschorns and neither praised nor insulted them. He was neutral about them in his comments.

That doesn't stop me from being happier than a pig in a great big pile 'o **** (edited for family reading). seriously. :-)

Just enjoy the music!

Woo

[Woodog]

oh, one more short comment. ... I'm going to take my ALK's over there one of these weekends and have fun with those. I've never heard them with LaScalas. Something different, ya know?

I heard the difference in my Khorns that crossovers made, I heard the difference that they made in the Cornwalls. I know my Heresys 1976's) need 'em.

Woo

[BS Button]

oh, one more short comment. ... I'm going to take my ALK's over there one of these weekends and have fun with those. I've never heard them with LaScalas. Something different, ya know?

I heard the difference in my Khorns that crossovers made, I heard the difference that they made in the Cornwalls. I know my Heresys 1976's) need 'em.

Woo

Agreed, but not this weekend...Talladega is in order and my hearing won't be the same for a week or so. Anyway, it appears to me that Colt and Who have some slightly different listening tastes. Imaging was not something to look for in Cell Dweller and Nightwish, but it was a blast crankin it at your house, Woo. I had plently of slammin heavy metal, but to me, that's not what I like most about the Klipsch Heritage signature. I'm inherently not a music person (unless I'm drinking), rather a sound person. Imaging is most fascinating to me: anything that images well or is even more enhanced in this system is my cat's meow, then dynamic range, then frequency response and accuracy, in that order, and I know I've got it, because I know what's been through here. I really liked most of their music and would expect the inverse is also true. Woo, please comment about the compressed nature of most recording's. I'd guess that I like any music that truly shows off the merits of my system/s.

Let's face it, the Cornwalls have deeper bass than the La Scala's, but I wouldn't say better, necessarily: better on some tracts for sure. The La Scala's in that upper bass to low mid to mid are unbelievable and even more appreciated with the Peach in front of most anything. The Aragon fits well because of the demands of the synthesizer: go ahead, blast away! It's my weakness and desire for a loudness feature coupled with the fact that there are no tone controls on most tube gear. Likely why Colter appreciates the Corns so much with a solid state reciever. They are a more balanced speaker in my opinion, than the La Scala. But the La Scala hammers the Cornwall on midrange, in imaging and overall live presentation of any most any accurate recording. I was very embarrassed that Who could not listen to his "test" recordings, at least not very many of them, but it sounds like he wouldn't have heard much because it was to test bass response alone and I wouldn't have had anything below 50 on the La Scala's, anyway. I wondered why you would test for it? I was expecting to hear comments like, "Damn, sounds like she's right here, there's the clarinet, there's the trumpet, whatever" But, in fact, we did so much talking: talked some more: turned it up and talked even louder: hell, I don't know how we could've truly analyzed something other than my "echo" in the bay area. I was so giddy that these guys were actually here, that the sound system had to be put on the back burner, and I'm afraid, it was...more later...

BS

[steve]

thanx Michael, Todd, Dr Who and Forrest for your listening reviews. I think most of us like hearing others systems, yet are comfortable with our own..but like you all stated, we Klipsch folks all appreciate the advice other Klipsch owners give..I have learned a lot here, but have also tried and disliked equipment many here give a five star rating! I really need to post a long winded summary of my trials and tribulations of my personal stereo nirvana accomplished between last fall and this "spring"!

That said, my room also had that"slapback echo" that Michael is talking about in Todd's room..I actually solved that using Lernd bass traps..although they say bass, they are broadband absorpstion traps..I used 8 in all, and since my ceiling is sloped, I used 5 on the high side, which seemed to echo more, and 3 on the low side..some on corners, some on wall/ceiling surfaces..anyway, it really did the trick.

I'll post pics when I write my my long story.

At any rate, thanx again guys..wish I was closer and could check out your stereo systems and vice versa..

PS-Woo ..you still using the Scott 130?

Steve

[DrWho]

I was very embarrassed that Who could not

listen to his "test" recordings, at least not very many of them, but it

sounds like he wouldn't have heard much because it was to test bass

response alone and I wouldn't have had anything below 50 on the La

Scala's, anyway. I wondered why you would test for it? I was expecting

to hear comments like, "Damn, sounds like she's right here, there's the

clarinet, there's the trumpet, whatever" ...

No need to be embarassed - there's a lot of players that have troubles

playing those CDs. And the recordings weren't only about bass response

either [] I have some issues when people talk about having an

"accurate" playback system. First of all, they weren't in the studio so

ultimately they don't know what perfect accuracy should sound like. But

more importantly the term is often used to explain why a poor recording

sounds like crap - almost as if it justifies it. Ultimately the purpose

of our systems is entertainment so anything that distracts from the

enjoyment is a negative aspect. I have heard "crap" recordings sound

great on "less accurate" speakers, but down right unbearable on really

"nice" setups....

[Woodog]

Steve asks: PS-Woo ..you still using the Scott 130?

Actually I found out that I like my 355 better. The 130 has some noise issues (I've cleaned and lubed all the switches and pots) but I've not yet sent it to Craig for the once (or twice) over. This is noise above and beyond the usual low level hiss that these units have.

I bought it because I remember how Seadog's 130 sounded at the Hope gathering last Fall. I hope that Seadog brings his 130 again so I can listen a bit more carefully.

But as of right now I plan to keep it because I was given a Leak Stereo 20 power amp that also needs some tender loving care. Both of these units will be showing up at Craig's fairly soon. When they return they might go into my office to drive the Heresys, or to the Kids room for his Tannoys, or to the church for the Cornwalls.

I've yet to hear tubes in the rather large space at church. My fault though. Cornwalls 35' apart throw a soundstage that is UNBELIEVABLE.

Or, I might just figure out which power amp I like better (the 208 or the Leak 20), sell the 130, the 355 and the other power amp and a set of Heresys I'm not using (at a friend's house, though) and finance a Peach. [8-)]

At any rate, I'm pretty slow to move on decisions like these.

Woo

[BS Button]

I was very embarrassed that Who could not listen to his "test" recordings, at least not very many of them, but it sounds like he wouldn't have heard much because it was to test bass response alone and I wouldn't have had anything below 50 on the La Scala's, anyway. I wondered why you would test for it? I was expecting to hear comments like, "Damn, sounds like she's right here, there's the clarinet, there's the trumpet, whatever" ...

No need to be embarassed - there's a lot of players that have troubles playing those CDs. And the recordings weren't only about bass response either [] I have some issues when people talk about having an "accurate" playback system. First of all, they weren't in the studio so ultimately they don't know what perfect accuracy should sound like. But more importantly the term is often used to explain why a poor recording sounds like crap - almost as if it justifies it. Ultimately the purpose of our systems is entertainment so anything that distracts from the enjoyment is a negative aspect. I have heard "crap" recordings sound great on "less accurate" speakers, but down right unbearable on really "nice" setups....

Agreed, I have issues when people talk about accuracy, as well. I just want it to sound good. Like, I think tubes sound good. I think a synthesizer economically takes the edge off of La Scala's. Then you get into opinions, which is just an opinion, like Indy suggested. And opinions are infinitely debateable. But, we debate in good faith, gather up some other opinions, then we make changes by spending money. Then we change again or add something and it never ends. And we keep our madness alive. Do you like tubes?

[BS Button]

Steve asks: PS-Woo ..you still using the Scott 130?

Actually I found out that I like my 355 better. The 130 has some noise issues (I've cleaned and lubed all the switches and pots) but I've not yet sent it to Craig for the once (or twice) over. This is noise above and beyond the usual low level hiss that these units have.

I bought it because I remember how Seadog's 130 sounded at the Hope gathering last Fall. I hope that Seadog brings his 130 again so I can listen a bit more carefully.

But as of right now I plan to keep it because I was given a Leak Stereo 20 power amp that also needs some tender loving care. Both of these units will be showing up at Craig's fairly soon. When they return they might go into my office to drive the Heresys, or to the Kids room for his Tannoys, or to the church for the Cornwalls.

I've yet to hear tubes in the rather large space at church. My fault though. Cornwalls 35' apart throw a soundstage that is UNBELIEVABLE.

Or, I might just figure out which power amp I like better (the 208 or the Leak 20), sell the 130, the 355 and the other power amp and a set of Heresys I'm not using (at a friend's house, though) and finance a Peach. [8-)]

At any rate, I'm pretty slow to move on decisions like these.

Woo

I know where you can get a "Peach", real quick.

[DrWho]

No need to be embarassed - there's a lot of players that have troubles

playing those CDs. And the recordings weren't only about bass response

either [] I have some issues when people talk about having an

"accurate" playback system...."blah blah blah"

lol, I need to not write when I'm so burned out...I totally forgot why I brought up talking about "accuracy".

Anyways, I was rather surprised how not awful some of these

recordings sounded...which I found to be a very reassuring thing. It

was definetly the first time lascalas weren't consisently driving me

outta the room to go run for cover. But ya, all that to say that some

of the poor recordings were still enjoyable (afterall, it's all about

enjoying the music in the end).

One other comment I wanted to make was that I felt a subwoofer was

needed in every single situation. I know a lot of the music you guys

listen to doesn't require it, but I felt like I was missing out on a

few songs...just one of those things that once you hear it you can't go

back...

Which brings me to two sidetracks. First, have you ever thought about

an IB, Todd? That attic space behind the TV wall is a perfect scenario.

I remember you mentioning that you didn't know which direction to go

right now because everything is sounding great. So ya, you've got

everything else right so there's my suggestion []

Ok, second sidetrack...time to stir up the pot and talk about my visit

to Trey (and hopefully make a loop back around to everything else I

experienced earlier that day).

So we were on our way back from Kentucky and I had remembered Trey

wanted me to give him a call if I was in town. He invited me over to

chill for a few minutes so he could show off all his stuff, but didn't

want it to be too late because he had church the next morning (gotta

love trying to get kids out the door). Eventually I get there around

10pm and the family is wrapping up what smelled like a very delicious

steak dinner. I was seated in the family room where there were a pair

of the new F2's (in cherry) being powered directly by his TV playing

some music channels. I couldn't believe how much bass those things

could pump out - and it sounded clean too. And this is just the

beginning of a ton of crazy things that sounded surprisingly good.

In his home office place he had a pair of cherry B3's hooked up to a

Pro Media 5.1 system. Again, surprisingly good sound. He had some cheap

soundcard that sounded great too...I think I might get one just to try

on my system at home.

After that we headed to the basement, which is what I wanted to talk

about. Trey is running lascala mains with the THX Ultra2 subs and a

Denon AVR-97...and it freaken sounded great. It was late so we couldn't

really crank anything and Trey was playing some music that isn't

normally my cup of tea, but man was that system clean - and I definetly

might be getting into some more music; I need to hunt him down and

figure out again what all he played.

We ended up talking until 2am in the morning, but the things that stuck

out the most were his comments about just enjoying the music. I think a

lot of dicussions would go differently if people had the enjoyment part

at the forefront of their mind. Either you enjoy a system or you don't.

I enjoyed everything I heard on Saturday.

[DrWho]

I was expecting to hear comments like, "Damn,

sounds like she's right here, there's the clarinet, there's the

trumpet, whatever" But, in fact...

One of the reasons I hesitate writing about sonic experiences is

because there isn't much to talk about other than the "flaws." I guess

in a way, you can read my posts and assume a perfect playback system

other than what I write about. Of course now you guys are gonna go

re-read and think everything I mentioned was a bad thing... [] (which

isn't the case cuz I try to be positive too...it's just not natural for

me).

But in regards to the imaging...one of the reasons that isn't a big

deal for me personally is that it effectively relies on the listener's

ability to ignore the room that he's in. Whether it be the studio, an

anechoic chamber, or a great symphony hall, our subconcious minds still

have an acoustic image of the room that we're in. So when presented

with a recording that is providing new sonic clues, we have to be able

to ignore our actual acoustic space and listen to only that which is

provided by us in the recording. The mind is a powerful tool in that

regard and somehow can totally filter it all out. But all that to say,

I don't often correlate imaging to the performance of the system, but

rather the listener himself. I've never heard a decent system that

couldn't image.

But for the record, there was one song where I pointed to where the female vocal was []

Also, another thing I was testing for and didn't mention was the

dynamic range of the system. There was the one Nightwish song with a

60dB transient that I'm yet to hear a normal home system reproduce. I

found it interesting that I remember my Denon 1803 + Chorus II's back

home being able to track it better (than even Woo's khorns - or did we

listen to that track there? I forget). And then Chorus II's + 1000W pro

amp do even better - like to the point of making you blink. However, it

is possible that my memory is skewed...as much as I hate to say it, my

ears aren't as good as they were a few years ago (which I associate to

wind noise from all the driving I've done with the windows down...I've

put over 70,000 miles on my car in the last 2 years). I need to go take

another hearing test and see how bad it's gotten - I start struggling

above 19kHz now.

And now that I'm just rambling I will shut up and go do something more productive for a while... []

[BS Button]

Enjoyed having you here and don't take too long before you make the trek again. Since your visit, I've already spent more money. Sony CDP XA20ES, big heavy platter with the hockey puck. We'll see if that works any better, eh?

[colterphoto1]

VERY nice, I always liked Sony DVD players. Nice addition to the clan there Todd!

M

[BS Button]

This is actually a dedicated CD player, I think.

BS

[colterphoto1]

Just saying that I liked Sony products of the disc variety. If they make good DVD's they must make decent CD players as well. Knowing you this is their top of the line?

Now go buy some CD's will ya? I challenge you to spend as much on music as you did on that player in the next, say TWO MONTHS? Think you can do it?

M

[BS Button]

Just saying that I liked Sony products of the disc variety. If they make good DVD's they must make decent CD players as well. Knowing you this is their top of the line?

Now go buy some CD's will ya? I challenge you to spend as much on music as you did on that player in the next, say TWO MONTHS? Think you can do it?

M

No way, I hate music, unless I'm drinking, and I don't drink much, anymore.