7.1 Klipsch Synergy III with Denon AVR-2807? bad combination?

[soulbabel]

I have the 2 f3's, 4 s3's, a c3 and a sub12 powered by a Denon AVR-2807 using 16 gauge wire. The problem is that the whole setup sounds really weak when I listen to it, like the Denon is underpowered (110 wpc) or something. This is my first home theater setup, but I'm pretty sure I've hooked it up correctly. The receiver volume goes up to 15 db max, and I have to turn the volume up pretty high to get decent sound. I don't hear anything, until about -40db, and its still pretty whisper quiet. About -19db its at a sub-decent volume, and at -8db its at a reasonable level that I find about right for watching a movie. The problem is at this idea level, the receivers protection circuit keeps tripping as soon as the movie soundtrack gives off a good amount of bass. The manual says the receiver will trip the protection circuit when it gets too hot, so I put a high speed fan to blow into the unit to cool off the heatsink, but it didn't help. The only difference I saw was when I changed the front speakers from large to small, at which it would trip the protection circuit at -1db instead of -8db. The thing that concerns me, is that the volume level was never really ear shattering, where I was like "oh crap, thats loud." Should this setup have the capability to be deafening?

Can anyone offer any insight into my situation? It'd be much appreciated. Thanks.

[Fish]

Well...unless Denon has done something really dumb the 2807 should

provide loud volume with no problem.I had several 38xx models driving a

7's setup,and although I wanted more the 38xx models never caused a

problem even very loud.The 2807 should go loud but not earth

shaking,you only get so much for the $.I'd also say the Denon is not

even close to 110 watts per 7 channels driven.I'd check(if you have

not) 110 power supply,speakers wires + - and condition,check

interconnects and maybe unhook 2 of the s3's and try,good luck.

[ironwoods]

Hi, I'm not familar with that reciever, but it seems you've plenty of power. Do you only have one speaker per amplifier binding post?

What are the room dimensions?

How Long( Chinese name?) are yer wiring runs?

Are you sure the speakers are wired in the same phase? - Red from amp to each speaker. Black from amp to each speaker. This would be my 1st guess as to the root of the problem.

Be careful with fans, as you may also be pushing/pulling any ambient dust through the unit, that may collect on hot components, therefore reducing their effectiveness. Is there enough free air room around the amp, for the natural convection to take place?

All things considered, does it sound good?

[kelA]

How big a room is this system in? If I were you I would double check all connections to make sure you have everything wired properly, and in phase (+ to +, and - to -) sounds like there may be a loose strand of wire shorting out your system. I know it sounds like a easy thing to do, but even the most experienced run into this problem. Did you do the auto setup using the included microphone with the Denon? What are the levels for each speaker? Maybe check to make sure the Dynamic Compression is turned off. Is the voulme the same for TV watching versus a DVD or CD? How do you have your source connected i.e DVD or CD? Coax or optical or RCA(analog).

Those are a few things to look into. On a side note my room is about 25 X 16 and I find that -35 on my Denon 2805 is a decent volume for movie watching.

[Steve_L]

Something doesn't feel right, you should have very good volume at -20 and window breaking sound at 0db. have a similar set up (only 5.1) in a 13X23 foot cathedral ceilinged room with a Pioneer 1015 and have mega volume. The Denon is at least as good, so you got something wired or set incorrectly I would think.

[soulbabel]

Thanks for the replies everyone so far. The room is 12'x22' with hardwood floors. I have it wired pretty standard, using Acoustic Research banana clips and speaker wire for the center and surround speakers. I used Monster cable and banana clips for the two front speakers. I'd say the cables going to the front speakers and the surrounds are about 18' long. And the back speaker wires are about 8' long. I was pretty meticulous when I made the speaker wires, but I'll definitely check to make sure the polarity of the speakers are correct. The room is at 71F. So far I've only tried it out with movies, I'll see how well they work with music. I've been thinking about getting an SPL meter, that way I can better quantify the loudness concerning this issue.

Do I think it sounds good... the quality of sound seems fairly good, its just not loud enough for me to really feel immersed in the movie I'm watching. And when it does get loud enough, the receiver trips a few seconds later.

[colterphoto1]

Imho, it's going to be difficult to get earthshaking movie soundtracks with that system. The receiver is rated at 110 wpc, but it does not list how that is measured. Many receivers (I'm not picking on Denon, just an assumption) are listed at 1 kHz, not full bandwidth. Also true power ratings should be taken will all channels operational, which is not stated.

My guess would be that this 110 wpc receiver is probably closer to 60-80 wpc. One problem might be in your speaker inefficiency however. Although the F3's are listed at a very respectable 97dbwm, those S3's are only 93 dbwm (decibles at one watt at one meter). Remember that it takes double wattage to get 3 db more output, so lets' see what your system is capable of- at peaks.

1 - 93

2 - 96

4 - 99

8 - 102

16-105

32-108

64-111

That's a theoritical top db level in your room with your setup. That's pretty loud at unity (0) on the volume control. You probably notice the amp or speakers breaking up before then. The speakers would probably take more wattage, but to double the wattage would cost a considerable amount. That is why a more efficient speaker may be your best option.

m

[soulbabel]

Thanks, that was a pretty awesome reply. However, I'm not sure if I can get more efficient speakers, cuz I'd have to return ship the F3s back to California, and I live in Virginia. I was looking around, and saw at Best Buy they had Yamaha HTR-5890 and HTR-5990. Both are rated 140wpc. I'm slowly becoming disinterested in the HDMI capabilities of the AVR-2807, and would really prefer a receiver that brought out the quality of the speakers. I was initially under the impression that throwing more wattage at the speaker might work, but according to the 2X Watts for +3db rule, I'd really only get 3 more dbs.

I'll cross my fingers and hope maybe I just messed something up in the wiring, just waiting to be fixed so that it can deliver its potential. I'll try some other source materials too.

[ironwoods]

IMO, I'd sleep better knowing that 14 awg was run throughout, even though 16 may be considered sufficient. It's the speakers life-line, and I wouldn't want to be starving their hunger for the juice. [li][D][li]

[sn3nut]

I have a similar speaker set-up (2 F3's, 4 SLX's, a C3 and a SUB12) on my Synergy HT. I have the F3's set as "large" and everything else set as "small." I drive them with a Yamaha HTR-5890 and use 14 gauge wire. The room is about 4000 cubic feet (20 x 20 x 10) with hardwood floors. Wire runs are about fifteen feet to the F3's and C-3, and around fifty feet to the SLX's. I did bi-wire the F3's using the A and B outputs, but that didn't affect the sound level. My normal day/evening listening level is around -30db to -25db. In night mode, I drop down to -50db to -45db. I have never gotten up to 0db, as the system tends to shake the entire house at about -5db.

I am not familiar with the Denon AVR-2807; does it have a speaker impedance setting? Also, how are you routing the receiver inputs? Using the best possible outputs from your sources (coaxial or optical digital)? Any attenuation points (line level settings) prior to the signal reaching the Denon's input ports? I know that on my system, I get various input levels depending on the source (cable box, DVD player, HTPC, tape decks, game consoles, etc.). Most are fixed level outputs, although a couple were adjustable. It took me a while to get everything balanced to eliminate drastic level changes when swithing from one source to another.

Keep in mind that the Denon might not be at fault if you are not feeding it properly ... GIGO (garbage in, garbage out!) Good luck in isolating the problem.

[fgarib]

Soulbabel,

I just kinda flew through the topic, so I don't know if your main problem has been rectified or not.

I really really think that your issue is nothing more than a short. I used to have the same problem and it took me FOREVER to figure it out. And the exact same thing; where at a volume peak, the receiver would shut down... So all I did was to unhook every single connection (speaker - wise) including behind the speakers, and took extra care to separate each portion of the naked wire.

Give that a shot. I don't care how bad the combination of speakers and receivers is, what you described just should not happen.

Keep me posted and let me know what happens. On the other hand, if you've solved the issue already, ignore this message entirely!

Good luck,

Fauzi

[kelA]

Did you ever find the problem?

[vanderrg]

I have a similar setup- it's a 17 x 40 room with 12-foot ceilings and hardwood floors. I'm using a Denon 885 (rated at 90wpc so less than yours) and a 5.1 system involving B-3's, C-3, and a sub-12.

I have to admit that I also thought it would be louder than it is, but the room is big and I'm using bookshelves instead of F-3's. Anyway if I want to have really big, loud sound I have noticed that I do have to have the volume close to reference (anywhere from -5 to 0). Normal listening levels probably -10 to -15 and you can still carry on a conversation if you raise your voice a little.

I would have thought that given the sensitivity of the speakers and my previous experience with Denon that I would not be able to take the receiver to reference volume without having the sound be uncomfortably loud and painful, and was surprised that this was not the case, but fortuantely it is just barely loud enough to satisfy me and it sounds great.

It does sound like something weird is happening that the protection circuit keeps cutting off and I have nothing to add to that part of the issue. Just throwing in my 0.02 about expected volume levels for the system...

[soulbabel]

Thanks everyone for the responses so far. I haven't had a chance to work on my speaker issues yet, as I've had school, work, and spent time making a DIY projector screen. I have an SPL meter now, and will go through and try to detect the issue this weekend. I'll update the thread when I have more info.

[DrWho]

Ok, first of all...something is wrong. That system should be freaken rocking your world.

When the speaker protection circuit kicks in, it is indicating that the

amplifier is seeing a short. It is very likely that the reason you

don't have much volume is that the current is going through the shorted

wire and totally bypassing your mains (and also draining your power

supply). And then at louder volumes the bass signals are finally

powerful enough to trigger the protection circuitry.

You really need to disconnect all of your wiring and start over. If the

problem comes back, then disconnect one wire at a time until the

protection circuit stops triggering. It is not good to rely on this

protection circuit as it is quite possible for the amplifier to blow

before the protection kicks in.

It's funny because similar problems have been popping up recently and I

tell everyone that the wiring has been the most common issue I've come

across, but lately it's never been the case.

Another test to try is to disconnect every wire from the reciever and

then crank the volume. If the protection circuitry kicks in with no

speakers attached then there is something faulty with the reciever and

you should go have it replaced.

You will also want to make sure that you have everything wired with

proper polarity and phase. I don't think this is your issue because the

reciever should be able to get up to +10 (with no tone controls

implemented) and be fine. I also don't think your speaker sensitivity

is an issue because the F3's are about 10dB hotter than most of the

competition that would normally be powered with a Denon 2807.

The only other possibility would be a wire came loose inside one of

your speakers and at loud bass passages the wires are being moved by

the air and creating a short when coming in contact. So it might be

worthwhile to make sure that all of your drivers are working (just take

the grills off and lightly press against the cone while music is

playing...if they're vibrating then it's all good). And then stick your

ear up near the tweeter to make sure they are all working too.

Well I think I covered every contingency...we just need to hear back from you now.

[TheEAR]

As one member pointed you may have a short.Recheck all speaker wiring,make sure no wires touch on the receivers back panel(if you use bare wire).I aALWAYS use banana jacks and all my wires are soldered and insulated when using cheaper wire 12 gauge.

I saw a system at a friends house that had this problem once,the amp was weak in his description.This was also a case at a high end dealer where the OUTPUT was weak,and this on a high power amp! Again a short.

Even with a measly El Cheapo 50W/channel receiver you should have a good SPL in your room.Not eardrum ripping but very substantial.

Also...

I have an older Denon 3802 still in light use,and with ineficient Paradigm Monitor speakers it can supply more than plenty to have serious SPL in a mid sized room with 12 cellings!So your receiver has the power,your speakers quite efficient.You may have a short

[Guest BobG]

One of the guys here has a similar complaint with his Denon 3803 with his KLF-30 system. Those speakers have even higher sensitivity than your F-3s but his receiver goes into protection at pretty moderate volume.

My best guess is that you don't have a short though that is the most typical cause of premature protection. I expect the Denon is just not happy with the impedance presented by the speakers. I've always liked the way Denon amps sounded, but it's possible that under competitive pressure to add features and reduce price that they have compromised the quality of the amplifier stages.

You might try borrowing another quality brand of receiver to see if that behaves differently. It's a pain to do but will tell you a lot about the real nature of the problem.

[Fish]

Bobs suggestion is worth a try(as you could learn some things),but I had a 3802/03/05 on my 7's setup

and never needed more volume(just better control),110dbs at my position was no problem.My

Denons never shut down with concerts at earsplittin levels.It was the

quality of the prepro section I had issues with,not bad but not so

great for 2ch music.

[DrWho]

There have been issues with other reciever manufacturers where the relays that trigger the protection are faulty and trigger early...

Though that wouldn't explain why things don't seem that loud. My 'little' 1803 had no problem reaching ear splitting volumes with my Marantz 940's (which are probably closer to 90dB efficient). And it also had no problems with RF-3II's either and definetly none with Chorus II's.

I can't imagine the newer lineups being worse...

If it is in fact a problem with the load the amplifier sees, then couldn't you just throw in a 3dB L-Pad across the entire output? (or some form of resistance in series to increase the load the amp sees). But wouldn't the current draw still be the same for the same SPL?

[Guest BobG]

Dr. I'm sorry to say that things have indeed been getting worse. As receiver manufacturers work to include more and more features at lower and lower prices, things that are not obvious on marketing brochures take a hit. Important things such as power supply capacity, output stage capability etc. IMHO, amps have actually been getting worse for a very long time.

This statement will reveal just how old I am, but used to be (say this in your best Walter Brennan voice) a good 30 wpc receiver would fill a room with music. I'm thinking HK 330, the original Advent receiver (which was 20 wpc I think) and even some Kenwoods and Sansuis though to a lesser degree.

Get one of these early '70s receivers and take a good look at heat sinks, output devices and power supply Xformer/caps. Though IC design has reduced the size of components, a mini Xformer or a single large one running 7 channels isn't as capable as a large power supply running just two channels.

OK, I'll stop the ranting.