Khorn Clones

[ajsons]

I just checked my speakerlab-k construction documentation...it specifies a slot of 3X13. if that is the case...do we still want to recommend a PA Bass driver like the 15L? I also checked my ACR Swiss EckHorn construction plans, it also has a 3X13 slot. The ACR Swiss EckHorn used a PA-38, which is a wide range full range driver (40hz - 4Khz) spl of 101 db at 1 watt. Think that the driver considerations for a K-Horn should center around what type of slot your k-horns have. If you have a 3X13 slot, a k-33 type driver should be considered. if you have a 6X13 slot, and would not mind less low end, the PA Bass drivers are an option.

The initial horn section under the motorboard starts wit a 78 sq inch opening. Why use a 39 sq inch (3 x 13) opening for the motorboard? It doesn't compute for me.

[Guest " "]

can't answer that question...just reporting what the speakerlab-k's and the acr eckhorn indicate for the slot opening.

point of intrest is the original question was what were the options to replace the woofer...aside from the k-33.

my only point is that if the question is based on a 3X13 slot opening, than my take is that the options are limited than if the slot opening was 6X13.

my take is that if you had a 6X13 slot opening, you could always put another mounting plate to bring the opening down to 3X13 but not vs versa.

[WMcD]

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/545205.aspx

That should get you to my post of the Edgar articles. You will see my comments in typewritten letters.

Looking at the data again, it does look like the slot bumps up response in the 350 to 400 Hz range. But there is a dip further down and you lose a few dB overall. What is going on in the deep bass is not shown.

So there may be something to say in favor of either.

One time I listened to the bass bin alone on my home built based on the SK plans. I was sort of disappointed at how muffled the sound was. My conclusion was that if you listen to just 400 Hz and below, there is not a lot of "information". Other people may want to try the same.

I reached some fuzzy conclusions. I do think that the bass horn gives the unique sound to a three-way horn system. It is difficult to hear much of anything "musical" without the mid and treble. So there is some funny interaction for which I can't give a good explanation.

Larry's comments about the perceived improvement in performance in what I'd consider outside the bass area reminded me of that "funny ineraction". I don't doubt him and Gary one bit.

The Edgar article has some numbers on T-S parameters he measured.

Gil

[WMcD]

BTW I used the 6 x 13 slot on the SKs motorboard and the front piece to which it attaches. My thought was that I could always substitute a motorboard with a slot.

The motorboard could have some extra pieces to narrow down the slot in the front piece.

I see in Larry's post the factory recommended the elimination of the motorboard. I'm sure you can figure out some options to allow that.

Best,

Gil

[Deang]

Nice to see you back Dana.

Gil, if you take nice two-way speaker with a crossover point of 2kHz, and listen to just the woofer -- it also sounds rather muffled and un-musical. Just a thought.

I don't how this plays into the equation, but after reading Dana's post, it came to mind that the older K-33's had a fs of 27Hz, and the newer ones are at 34Hz.

[Marvel]

Dean,

You gonna sell me a couple of the solen inductors or make me order them from Canada?

Bruce

[Guest " "]

your observation of muffled sk k-horns using a 3X13 slot is consistent with my observations....I like the upper mid bass as opposed to disco-type deep bass.

my observations are that setting up an intial 6X13 slot opening provide options of the different driver flavors with the option of installing a board with a 3X13 slot if a deeper bass sound was sought at the expense of upper mid bass (3X13) rather than an emphasized upper mid bass sound at the cost of not having that deep disco-type bass sound (6X13).

[ajsons]

Gil,

Which driver will you use on "The Caves" thread?

Armando

[Deang]

Change your mind Bruce? Not a problem -- shoot me an email at dgwescott@sbcglobal.net with your shipping address. I'll send them out tomorrow. Just a pair of .20mH 14AWG Litz, correct?

[bluesboy]

If you want to improve the sound of Speakerlab bass horn get rid of the 3/4 motor board that the woofer is attached to and screw the woofer directly to the front panel that has the 3x13 slot cut in it. The bass sound has more punch using this set up.

[Guest " "]

hopefully it won't have a 3X13 slot and it will have a 6X13 one.

[D-MAN]

I'm with Gil on the motor board with a different slot size. I have both, and have "tested" them by ear with the same driver, different slot, etc.

This is just my opinion about why Klipsch dropped the separate motor board from the Khorn (which Speakerlab kept, and so did I)... Economics, 2 less pieces to cut, and who cares about convienience - PWK didn't want people messing with his lashup anyway...

The difference to the driver is nill, as the diaphragm is still the same distance from the baffle whether direct mounted or on a separate motor board.

Add to that the capacitance due of an extra 1/2" of travel through a non-expanding length of duct is of NO MEASURABLE ACCOUNT.

Therefore, the ONLY difference is the SLIGHT amount of back chamber volume displaced by the "extra" motor board. That is it! And that ain't much, kids. Do the math.

The small slot in the Khorn is specific to and for the exclusive use of the K33E in the Khorn, although, as Bruce Edgar pointed out in the afore-mentioned article (the retraction "Ooops" article), there probably won't be alot of difference in frequency response between the two slot sizes except in overall efficiency (meaning other drivers, etc).

However, I found that the K33E in the wide slot to be pretty horrible sounding. It really NEEDS the added resistance afforded by the smaller slot size to tighten up its response.

Other drivers may not and may operate "better" with less restriction, it depends on their respective "specs".

With all due repect to some here whose opinions I tend to respect, I cannot hold with the idea that the woofer mounting has anything to do with the quality of bass response in the Khorn as to one with a direct-mount to the baffle versus one with the removable motor board... If there is INDEED a difference as some would have us beleive, that naturally implies that one version of mounting is more subject to vibration than the other and one would naturally prefer that the less subject to vibration the overall strucure is, the better, however, to prefer the direct-mount is to imply that a certain amount of extra vibration is desirable - and I won't ever find that acceptable.

If it is true that a direct-mount sounds "better", perhaps that is a vibrational symtom resulting from using 1/2" ply versus 3/4" baffle material, etc.? Sort of like a drum head?

The physics of having an additional board and its inherent stiffness added to the baffle can easily be seen to increase the overall stability of the baffle and thereby lessen the tendency to vibrate the baffle at the throat.

No sir, in my opinion, the direct-mount approach sounding "better" doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

Dana