SilverSport Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 Okay...I may be over stating this but...I have a nice Home Theater...most of my dissatisfaction with my set up is OPERATOR ERROR...me but I am a little disappointed with the punch...exaggerated by hearing a buddy's "inferior" set up that had plenty of pop. Outlaw Audio 950 PrePro Outlaw Audio 7100 7 X 100 (using 5.1) Outlaw Audio LFM1 Sub (crossover at a bit greater than 60Hz) Klipsch Heresy Mains (crossover at 60Hz) Klipsch K-Stack (popbumper) Academy (crossover at 80Hz) Klipsch KSF-S5 surrounds (crossover at 80Hz) Sony 36" CRT and Sony DVD player... checked with Radio Shack SPL...all speakers AND sub set to "level" to compensate for the different efficiencies... I know the capabilities are there as at times (Band of Brothers DVD in DTS) it sounds great but on the buddy's more simple system watching a bit of Spiderman II...it had POP...of course his was not set up with any SPL help and his Sony surround speakers are MUCH smaller than my set up...any help would be GREATLY appreciated...used for movies alone really...I have 2 channel set ups in other rooms for music... Thanks, Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 What's your buddy have? What's your room setup and acoustics like? Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 He has a somewhat simple Sony surround all in one...I have a basement with cement floors coverec in carpeting and minimal padding (I think it is the carpet with attached padding) and wall board walls with windows and plastic blinds right now..."L" shaped room but the listening area is one leg of the "L"...it seemed to have a bit more punch before I did the Radio Shack SPL thing but maybe it is just the movies I am comparing...Crash last night...sounded great but a mostly dialog movie... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 You need more horsepower speaker wise. You got the processor and amp and a capable center, but the one pair of Heresy's and the soundspraying KSF-S5's aren't enough to deliver a whallop IMHO. If it were possible I would recommend going to Forte's or Forte II's in the front and in the rear if at all possible. If you could get four Forte's working in conjunction with that Academy center it would simply propel you into the big leagues and leave your Sony listening experience in the dust. When I get things cranking you better hold on to something because you are going for a ride! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 Frzn...that could be it but I picked up a pair of really nice Quartets (same family but a bit smaller than the Forte's) and tried them in place of the Heresys and found very small if any improvemement...that center is the cat's pajamas but...I get really good sound from the KSF-S5s in the rear as well...so the likely culprit is the Heresys...I have a second set of Heresys I could try in the rear to compare...I just thought something might be wrong with my configuration or set up...I tried the Heresys at 80Hz and didn't care for it...tried the front three at 60Hz but the center was doing WAY too much duty and it sounded a bit muddy...setting the Heresys to 60Hz and the Academy to 80Hz seemed like a nice mix...for two channel music (in Stereo Bypass) it ROCKS, this leads me to believe I have mucked something up in the set up...thanks and keep it comin' and I will keep tweaking... Heresys 96dB 50-17 set @60Hz Academy 96dB 65-20 set @80Hz KSF-S5 90dB 60-20 set @80Hz Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 Yes I was just looking up those numbers. Efficiency is the key here. Heresy to Forte as Frz suggested would be 2.5 db more, effectively twice the power Those KSF won't keep up, if you tweaked them to 100%, then made the Heresies balance in terms of 'perfect' setup volume, you just killed another 6 db's out of your Heresies. Sp it's like running 25 wpc into the Heresies- no wonder you aren't wetting your knickers! So the answer is matching timbres AND efficiencies. Forte's all around would be an excellent suggestion for you. Not too spendy, would match your Academy that you say you love. Compared to working things around the KSF 90 db effiency, the Fortes at 98 would be nearly like putting 500 wpc into your existing rig (double for each 3 db), IF it could take it. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 Guys...thanks for making this so even I can understand...THAT sounds like it could be the answer as it seemed to have gotten weaker when I calibrated with the Radio Shack meter...by "dumbing down" for my only 90dB efficient KSF-S5s I have taken the guts out of the Heresys??? Have I got that right???...I may calibrate again with Heresys front and back and rebalance the system...keep it comin' people...I'm learnin' here!...[][] Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 ...well, I hooked up the other Heresys to the rear and set the following all to 0dB by ear...will try with the Radio Shack meter later... Heresy Mains 60Hz crossover Small Academy Center 80Hz crossover Small Heresy Surround 60Hz crossover Small LFM-1 Sub 65Hz crossover On Band of Brothers in DTS...action scene with a lot of shooting it sounds very nice but then it did for this before albeit perhaps a bit weak. Before when I had set things with the KSF-S5 surrounds I boosted those while the others were turned below 0dB...so if I understand you, I weakened my mains and center at the expense of boosting my surrounds (to compensate for their relative inefficiency???)...by setting them all to 0dB I at least have a starting point...need to try some more movies I guess... Thanks, Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockbobmel Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 It's always a funny thing... I am amazed with my girlfriend's $300. sytem. She has a Panny XP-10 (5x100) dig. receiver and Yamaha HTIB speakers w/skinny cheapo wires. SOUNDS GREAT!. Her "stereo" is an Arcam Integrated amp and CD with 2' Acoustic Energy speakers. Amazing..!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 Yes Bill, you are understanding correctly. By using two sets of Heresies and the efficient Academy, when you balance the relative loudness of each speaker, you aren't turning anything down as much as when you had the KSF's in the circuit. For now, I'd just let there be a front/back imbalance versus decreasing the Heresy's output. I wouldn't set the output of any channel greater than '0' (if will even allow that) It would help even more to get speakers more efficient than the Heresies. But unless you go to LS, about the best you'll gain is another 3 db over the Heresy. Many guys here have complete Heresy systems, so you're getting there. Another method is to realize that receivers just don't put out rated power into all channels with them all driven- you just can't get 700 watts out of the power supply. By using the main LR outputs into a separate power amp for your mains, you free up the receiver to just blast the center and surrounds, which makes an easier load for it. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 One thing I would start with is an 80Hz crossover for every channel - regardless of the performance potential of your speakers. The reason being that this is pretty much the defacto standard that all the video studios are using when making the DVD. That's not to say other settings can't be used, but rather things are much easier to get sounding right this way. Do you have the crossover on your sub bypassed? If you are using the crossover in your receiver you shouldn't be using the crossover on the sub because it will result in a gap in the frequency response (aka "cascading crossovers")...that is unless There was one more thing, but for the life of me I can't remember. Nevertheless, your system is certainly nowhere near lacking and should stomp all over your buddy's HTIB. What part of Illinois are you from? If I was ever in your area I would be more than willing to swing by and give you a second opinion on what you're actually hearing. Oh right...the phase on your subwoofer...how did you go about setting it? Attached is a little pdf you might find interesting. subsettings.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 Michael and Doc...I will check those out as well...I will check the Sub crossover in the PrePro and the back of it so there is no gap...I clicked the phase switch one way, then the other until one "seemed" to sound better than the other...then I left it there...Doc, thanks for the kind offer...my brother is coming over and we'll give some of this a try...I am in Brookfield, Il...not far from your home base...I will report back here the findings... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScorpsFan Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 PLAYED WITH THE SETTINGS AGAIN DIDN'T YOU?!?!?! Seriously Bill, everyone is giving you great advice and it sounds like you understand it pretty well, play with it for a while, call if you get in a jam and remember, you have TUBES to fall back on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 Dr. Who...VERRRRY interesting PDF...THANKS!...my crossover on the Sub was switched to Bypass all along (despite my 80Hz on the dial (I thought it was 65Hz) ) and I'll check my Phase Switch to "0" (I think it is already set up that way) and it is nice to know why I didn't hear much between the two settings...I am going downstairs to set all the crossovers to 80Hz...thanks again guys. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 ...thanks ScorpsFan...going for the changes again...Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 Another method is to realize that receivers just don't put out rated power into all channels with them all driven- you just can't get 700 watts out of the power supply. By using the main LR outputs into a separate power amp for your mains, you free up the receiver to just blast the center and surrounds, which makes an easier load for it. Michael Michael/Bill,correct me if I'm wrong but Bill has an Outlaw 7100-(7x100)amp powering his speakers?I had an Outlaw 7125(7x125) on my rf7s and it would blow your hat off,with power to spare,a very solid ampThere is no obvious reason that Bills HT should not be great(although I've not heard a Heresy HT setup). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 Another method is to realize that receivers just don't put out rated power into all channels with them all driven- you just can't get 700 watts out of the power supply. By using the main LR outputs into a separate power amp for your mains, you free up the receiver to just blast the center and surrounds, which makes an easier load for it. Michael Michael/Bill,correct me if I'm wrong but Bill has an Outlaw 7100-(7x100)amp powering his speakers?I had an Outlaw 7125(7x125) on my rf7s and it would blow your hat off,with power to spare,a very solid ampThere is no obvious reason that Bills HT should not be great(although I've not heard a Heresy HT setup). For what it's worth, the Outlaw was measured with all channels driven: "Power Output (FTC): 7 x 100 watts @ 8 ohms, 20 - 20kHz, 0.05% THD, All Channels Driven" http://www.outlawaudio.com/support/discontinued/7100_specs.html So it definetly can put out the power that it's rated for. However, these tests were most certainly conducted driving an 8ohm resistor - which means the complex impedance of the speaker is not being taken into account. Not to mention the amplifier doesn't double down into a 4 ohm load...so when cranking the volume any large impedance swings are going to severely modify the frequency response of the speaker. Here's an interesting read about the FTC standard: http://www.soundstage.com/gettingtechnical/gettingtechnical200503.htm (and a lil advertising for NAD at the end? lol) So ultimately it comes down to how "easy" (linear) of a load you have connected - "better" amplifiers behave better with the "harder" (nonlinear) loads. Anyways, the amplifier in this case is definetly not the weakest link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 thanks again everyone...I just took a big step forward...based on Dr. Who's PDF about the sub, I set mine to "0" on the phase switch (it was set the opposite) and set all speakers to small with the corssovers for all set to 80Hz...listened to some more Band of Brothers (same track from disc 5 and then some bombing in Bastogne...I could feel the thump in my chest and across the legs...things vibrated in my basement that were not before (no BIG change but different I think)...the rears sound nice but I don't feel much is coming from them...could be the source material though...more directional but then I knew where the sound was coming from with the WDST KSF-S5s...progress perhaps... Fish, you are correct...even with "only" 100 watts and all channels driven (I am only using 5.1) it can crank! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 The subwoofer's crossover needs to be bypassed as DrWho stated OR it needs to be set as high as possible to avoid the cascading of two crossovers. More bass output will give your theater more slam. A second subwoofer is also a possibility. Heresies all around sounds like the start of a very good theater. The biggest weakness is lack of bass with the Heresy. Subwoofer output cures the problem. Good subwoofer output is key and placement is also critical to output. I found myself sitting in a null from my RSW-15. Better placement and a Velodyne SMS-1 evened out the bass response. Placement of the other speakers is also important. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 shouldn't the KSF-S5 surround question be made moot by the BOOSTING of settings to those speakers??? I have changed the crossovers on everything to 80Hz does anyone think 100Hz for the Center and Surrounds might help??? I am going back down to tweak some more (just finished waxing my car...just a bit on the plate today...like all of you, yes?...[])...I believe speaker placement is part of my issue as well, hopefully to be cured when I redo the theater area and set it up how I want and not what I can make fit for now...thanks all... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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