Klipschorn capacitor upgrade

[Nickal]

I have contacted Jensen about supplying a 13uF capacitor to replace the standard type fitted by Klipsch and so that I do not have to parallel 2 capacitors of higher quality to obtain the necessary value. No manufacturer has a stock capacitor of the required value which represents an upgrade to that fitted.

Fortunately Jensen can manufacture a 13uF paper in oil capacitor although a minimum order of 25 pieces is required. The cost is as follows in Danish kroner:

Aluminium paper-in-oil: 275Dkk ($35 approximately)

Copper paper-in-oil: 510Dkk ($65 approx)

If anyone is interested please contact me so that a block order can be placed with Jensen. These prices are exactly those quoted to me be Jensen - the only additional charge would be for postage and possibly any other import duties outside the European Community.

Nicholas Kalavanas

[Al Klappenberger]

Nickal,

Solen has a 13 uFd "FastCap". It is part number PA1300.

The price is only $2.41. They are good caps too!

http://www.solen.ca

Al K.

[mike stehr]

Hello.

I have used Solen fast caps and think

that they are great caps for the price.

If and when I upgrade my Chorus II X-overs,

I will use Solen caps due to budget constraints,

and Madisound ships quick.

But for people who could afford it, I wonder

what would be the sonic advantages of using

Jensen caps in various older Klipsch lines?

From what I understand, Jensen's have a warmer

sound to them than most capacitors.

I wonder if these caps could kill some harshness

in the horns from using solid state amplifiers?

The high dynamics of these speakers will let

you know if you are using cheap gear and thought

maybe the jensen caps could give the speakers

a warmer sound?

This is probably irrelevent to tube gear owners,

I figure the caps would get in the way of a

warm sound already.

I guess it applies to the person's taste for the

sound they like, and finding the capacitor that

suits it.

Your replies are most appreciated.

Thanx!

[Al Klappenberger]

Mike,

I have never had a chance to evaluate the Jensen caps, but they are oil and paper. This is an old technology and will certianly have greater internal losses compared to the polyproplyne caps like the FastCaps. All losses do is "mask" other things. I think your best bet for really fixing harshness is to damp the squawker horns with Dynamat material. If you have an early K55V squawker drivers (with push-pin connections) put a "P" trap in the circuit. Don't do it with a high loss cap!

I am assuming here that the 13 uF cap is for an "AA" network in a Khorn or La Scala, not a Chorus II.

Al K.

[mobile homeless]

Not so sure about Al's take on the Jensen copper oil caps. I have had all sorts of caps in my gear from Solen Fast Caps to MIT RTX to ELNA Cerafine to Black Gate.

Personally, I think the Jensen copper oils are some of the most musically natural caps I have ever heard and in certain applications, can make the Solen sound harsh and two dimensional. While I do have Solens in my power supplies with some gear, I would seriously consider all the options within the Klipsch. I know of many that have gone with Jensens or AudioNotes in their KHorns crossovers with excellent results.

I am currently using Jensen Copper PIO caps as the all important coupling caps between my 6SN7s and 2A3 in my Welborne Labs Moondogs. These caps are very musical with excellent detail sounding more natural than anything I have had.

Before I even mess with my Type B crossovers, I am going with Al's intelligent rec to damp the horns.

kh

f>s>

[Al Klappenberger]

Mobile..

I figured my comments on the oil caps would get some comments! Let 'er rip! 8^)

To add some fule to the fire:

The old caps on all the old networks Klipsch made are oil and paper!

Al K.

[mobile homeless]

Good point, AL. I am hoping that most are aware of this fact.

How about these sticks of kindling:

* All Polypropylene caps are not created equal. There are sound differences between these caps.

* There is a discernible difference between metallized Polypropylene and Film & Foil Polypropylene.

* All Paper in Oil caps are not created equal. There are differences in the different brands and implementations. Aluminum foil sounds different than Copper Foil which sounds different than Tin Foil Paper in Oil caps.

Somehow implying that the Paper in Oil caps in the vintage Klipsch speakers would be the same as modern or Jensen PIO caps is not entirely accurate.

Besides, since you have never even heard the Jensen line of caps, or any modern paper in oil cap, I would think you are coming from a slightly disadvantaged viewpoint regarding the cap discussion as far as the old ears are concerned.

Then again, to add more fuel to the fire, based on our email exchanges in the past, you apparently are not even so sure your crossover is an improvement over the original Type B crossover. I also know from our discussions that you dont let your ears be the final arbiter or judge in sound quality, preferring to stick to the engineering side of the equation; this is understandable given your background. If something sounds better, but measures worse, you will opt to believe the measurements, this based on your comments to me.

Obviously, many are very happy with your product. Indeed, it seems to be a well made item and almost all comments are positive. Before jumping on the bandwagon, however, I would like to hear it. I have talked with a few that say your crossovers have added a certain brightness and hardness to the sound in their systems. All this being said, I know you are a very fair person and even offer your plans free on your site so anyone can try their hand at making your design to save money and see for themselves. You also offer a 100% money back quarantee. I think this is entirely commendable and a rarity these days. I must also add that I was interested in buying Al's crossovers, and he actually did not try to sell them to me..another rarity. I know that there will more than likey be a deluge of responses on here talking of the improvements the ALK has made. It is a nice looking unit as well, although not as simple and pure as the original Type B Klipsch (Note: the graphic above is of the ALK crossover for the Cornwall Type B and not the Klipschorn).

Still, I would like to A/B your crossover against the Type B original. And I am not altogether sure that a fine Jensen or AudioNote Paper in Oil cap might not be a better thing for a Klipsch horn system.

kh

f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 11-07-2001 at 09:12 AM

[Al Klappenberger]

Mobile,

You are correct about my not having actually evaluated the Jensen caps. This

is because they are so expensive and are only +-20% tolerance. I am buying

caps in large quantities and matching them to within about +-1% in pairs.

That is a lot harder to do with such poor tolerances! Two caps that could be

as much as 40% apart are rather had to match in sets! I can't justify even

buying a single one to measure. I would be stuck with it. The Hovland and

FastCaps are all +-5%. You can't build filters that work correctly with

tolerances like that. The Hovland capacitors also have losses so low I can't

measure them. Their quality factors measure greater the 2000. The FastCaps

are nearly as good. The oil caps in my old "AA" networks are on the order of

400, if my memory serves me.

I am using either film and foil caps (Hovland) or FastCaps with Harmony

brand bypasses in all cases. I do this because of my background in microwave

filters. I have seen the effects of high loss components first hand. Their

effect is to round the "corner" of a filters passband / stopband transition.

This causes a loss of energy passing through it away from the corner also.

This happens more at the cutoff than in the passband though. That is what

causes my networks to sound "bright". The "AA" network, for example, has 3

dB of loss at 17 KHz. The "AB" networks has 1 dB. This is because of the

filter design itself primarily. My network ("A" series) has typically .3 or

.4 dB loss. This lets more energy through to the tweeter. Since speakers

usually show +-5 dB flatness at best anyhow, this just shows up as a

"crisper" sound to my ears. If you put in caps with higher loss, the energy

to the tweeter drops. Certainly this will sound less "harsh". You could put

cotton wads in your ears too. That would make the sound even more mellow!

As to an A/B comparison of my networks to the stock one, I welcome and

encourage that but I couldn't do it myself because I didn't have a set of

two Cornwalls. I developed the "B" by measurements on a single Corwall I

used to have as a center speaker. I made two sets before releasing them and

had them evaluated by ear by two different people. I am counting on their

judgment as to weather they are really an improvement over the stock

networks. One fellow is a critical ear ear who listens to a lot of live

music and was using a vacuum tube amp (McIntosh). the other was an engineer

using a SS amp (Crown). Measurements I made of frequency response showed

that both network designs had a flat response but mine presented a constant

4 Ohm load to the amp. Can you hear a difference because of that? It seems

that you can but you can justify that in theory. A power amp has typically

1/10 Ohm source impedance and shouldn't care what load it sees!

The bottom line is that there is no absolute right or wrong! Instrument

measurement are just the beginning. I do believe however that you must START

with good measurements and go from there. After all, some people even sware

BOSE speakers are the best there is. I have to assume it's because they like

they way they will fit in the palm of your hand!

Al K.

[mike stehr]

Thanks for the replies.

Thats right! Jensen PIO caps are popular

with valve folks, my mistake.

But they are spendy! But for serious tube

nuts, no biggee.(Caps come in many flavors).

I just want upgrade the crossovers on

my Chorus II's the simplest way possible.

Could'nt a guy take the 4 capacitors on the

Chorus II X-over, 2 electrolytics and 2 foil type

ones and replace them with high quality audio

grade caps?

Same value of course, and same or higher voltage.

The same with the sand cast resistor, replace

with same value high quality non-inductive type.

And basically leave the inductors alone.

(Autoformer too).

Or replace with high quality inductors if

one knows the values. (But this will require

a new board more than likely due to the larger

inductors).

Could this give a better sonic improvement to

the existing crossover?

I have some primitive software for testing speakers,

basically tones and sweeps, and a Radio shack spl meter.

About all this would do is give me barely some rough idea on the drivers working ranges.

But I was hoping I could use a schematic, replace

existing with higher quality and come up

with better sound.

Would this idea be worth it?

Your replies are appreciated.

THANX!

[Al Klappenberger]

Mike,

Don't let all this discussion about the merits of capacitor upgrades make you think the inductors are not important! The inductors are a much larger contributer to the loss in a filter than the caps are. A typical inductor will have a quality factor (Q) of 20 - 50 compared to hundreds for even poor capacitors. Upgrade the inductors FIRST! Use coils would of "Litz" wire for the tweeter / squawker filter. Solid wire is just as good for the woofer inductor. Also.. Iron core inductors actually change their value with the level applied to them. Replace them with big air-core coils. You will be glad you did!

BTW: Consider just building a new network from scratch with all upgraded parts on a seperate board. Keep the "stock" network for A/B comparisons and to restore the speaker to factory specks if you decide to sell it someday.

Al K.

[Malcolm]

Mike,

I'd at least replace the electrolytics. They are the things I have had the most problems with in all kinds of electronic gear. They were used because they were cheap and good enough for the purpose as far as the engineer was concerned. But, electrolytics corrode internally and go bad over time.

If you replace inductors, watch the DC resistance. Larger wire than used in the orignal inductor will be required to yield the same value.

Al,

Not to discount film caps...

I was wondering if you ever actually tried matching 20% caps? From what I have seen, 20% parts almost always measure a lot closer to the nominal value than plus or minus 20%, and parts from a single manufacturing run don't vary anywhere near that from each other. And, at least some manufacturers are even very consistent from run to run.

Its the match between pairs, not the deviation from the nominal value, that is most important to you, isn't it? I would think it wouln't be significantly more difficult to match 20% parts from the same batch than 5% parts.

[johns02]

I think Al's crossovers make my K-Horns sound more revealing. The closer tolerances also equate to the improved imaging over the old crossover. Couple this with bad electronics and you will get that harsh sound. I have a Rotel RCD-971 with clock upgrade running thru a Bryston .5b pre and Bryston 4B amp. No tone controls and this setup sounds wonderful. Damn near flat!!! If I connect an older cd player (Carver) or say an old pioneer receiver the bright/harsh sound reappears. If you are going to skimp on electronics then I suggest buying some Polks or Boston Acoustics, much less revealing.

Just my 2 cents.....

[Al Klappenberger]

Malcom,

Your are correct that production runs of parts with +-20% tolerance will usually be closer than that to each other, however, that is not for sure. The other problem is that filters have to have parts that are close to what that are supposed to be to work properly. What good is it if left and right are perfectly matched and both 20% off frequency! Not only will it generate frequency response "bumps", but will screw up the "return loss" as well. In terms most people wound understand, that means the impedance will shift from resistive to inductive or capacitive in unpredictable ways. The only way to be sure is to get better parts to start with. That fact is that more complex filters thatn those in crossover networks are generally require to be within 1% or 2%. With 2nd or 3rd order filters, you can use 5% parts. Doing this holds my network crossover frequencys to within about 50 Hz out of 6000 Hz. The "A" networks squawker / tweeter crossover generally measures at about 5800 Hz. With +-20% parts, who knows!

Al K.

[Malcolm]

Thanks for the explanation, Al.

Now I just need to convince myself to part with the money for five of your crossovers...

[mike stehr]

Thanks Al, for the suggestion.

I just Emailed Matt at Klipsch for the

Chorus II crossover schematic and will build

a scratch one using better quality parts and see

what happens.

Then if I don't like sound of the upgraded

crossover I still have the old ones to fall back on.

And will keep in mind the importance of inductors.

(I think a reason a lot of folks don't usually

change inductors on DIY crossover upgrades is

sometimes the schematic is next to impossible

to get, and a lot of inductors have no values

marked on them.)

And inductance (LCR) meters ain't cheap!

I don't think I'll get rid of these, except maybe for

Klipschorns.(My buddy and I used to drool on these

when we where kids).

Malcolm, this first thing I noticed when I

seen these X-overs is the electrolytic caps,

And thought, why would they put electrolytics

on a crossover?!

That's no place for a electrolytic!

I agree with you, just changing these alone

would probably bring more sonic merit.

johns02, I have a Yamaha CX-1 pre-amp and MX-1

power amp.

Yeah, it's Yamaha, but it ain't bad electronics.

The amp is a 440 watt daul mono configuration

with two trannies,

and lots of audio grade caps.

Same with the pre.

It may be getting a little old, but it's not

skimping type gear.

I have Sansui speakers for the less revealing work.

Thanks for the replies!

THANX!

[Al Klappenberger]

Mike,

On the subject of electroyletic caps: They are used in the woofer filter. You'll find them connected right across the woofer driver. That means they don't see anything higher than 1000 Hz or so. That position in the filter can require values greater the 100 uFd. A cap other then an electrolyetic can be the size of Texas when it's that high of value. You simply can get away with it, so manufacturers do it!

Al K.

[Mike Lindsey]

Mike,

Was wondering when you get the schematic, can you scan it and pass it along to me?

Mike

------------------

My Music Systems

[edwardre]

FWIW - There appears to be to iterations of Klipsch 'AA' networks. I have an old pair (60's?) that is plumb stuffed with the oil/paper filled caps. The newer one that was in my Belle is also an 'AA'. It has the electrolytic 'cans'. Absolutely no question as to which sounds better. The oil filled are so far ahead of the newer ones that words can't even describe. But I'll attempt to. In my ear's opinion, the newer non-oil's are not only harsher, they are at the same time 'muddier' or unclearer. The oils are smooth, melodic, natural and infinately clearer. This is using the K55V with the push connectors. Tried an AB as well. Somewhere in between the oil filleds and the non-oil filleds, but closer to the oil filled.

------------------

Ed

[edwardre]

FWIW - There appears to be two iterations of Klipsch 'AA' networks. I have an old pair (60's?) that is plumb stuffed with the oil/paper filled caps. The newer one that was in my Belle is also an 'AA'. It has the electrolytic 'cans'. Absolutely no question as to which sounds better. The oil filled are so far ahead of the newer ones that words can't even describe. But I'll attempt to. In my ear's opinion, the newer non-oil's are not only harsher, they are at the same time 'muddier' or unclearer. The oils are smooth, melodic, natural and infinately clearer. This is using the K55V with the push connectors. Tried an AB as well. Somewhere in between the oil filleds and the non-oil filleds, but closer to the oil filled.

------------------

Ed

[mobile homeless]

Oil caps get thumbs down by many that stare at measurements, unable to grasp that sometimes the measurements are not interpreted correctly...

Frankly, oil caps, even of the older variety, do so many things RIGHT that most on here that automatically toss their simple B Crossovers are doing themselves and the music a great injustice. Believe me, I had to take the long road as well...I have spent SO MUCH on gourmet caps. But I have found that in certain situations (though not all), a good oil cap can just be more of a whole, and hence, more musical than anything available. People that say they "roll off" the signal are just not using top notch gear. These are the same loons that tell me that a single-ended design using a 2A3 is a distortion device. I have to say that it is perhaps THE most transparent glimpse into the heart of music I have EVER heard. No, it doesnt always do everything, but lord, for those that have never heard it, I would love to help.

As for caps, to hell with measurements or worrying about 20% tolerance(measurements are important, but not so much that you disregard other stimulii). I have heard oil caps absolutely SMOKE other caps in my gear that measured within 3% tolerance! Occasionally, you will lose a hair of the transient snap of a snare rimshot (I am talking REALLY subtle differences here).... but on the whole, a good oil cap does so little to HARM the signal, something you CANNOT say for even some top notch, boutique Polypropylene.

Before you numbers crunchers write off yet another device that "measures" less than something, do yourself a favor and give a listen with REAL music with the three most sophisticated measuring tools ever encountered:

Your TWO ears and your skull cap!

When you combine science and rational thought, along with educated listening, things move forward....for REAL.

kh

f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 11-09-2001 at 09:19 PM