Q-Man Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I have a spec. sheet on the 290-16K drivers that I am using. Frequency response 300 Hz to 7000 Hz Recommended crossover frequency 300 Hz or above Power handling capacity 100 watts Hello John, I would like you to build me two more networks for my Altec/JBL combo when you get the time one of these days. Q. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Yowser ... 100 Watts @ 300 Hz .... that's an A$$ Kickin' driver, for sure .....[] give 'er Diesel .....[6] i need to look at my 290 E-16's , and see exactly what dia's are in mine .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Chops, In all honesty, I don't understand what he is trying to say. The Fs of a driver gives some indication of the bandwidth it is capable of effectively working across. Most decent DRs can produce a reasonably linear response over 3-4 octaves above the Fs. Horns are less because they give up bandwidth for efficency. Your analogy is not a good one because it would be quite a challenge to find a 5" "woofer" with an Fs at 30Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Your analogy is not a good one because it would be quite a challenge to find a 5" "woofer" with an Fs at 30Hz. Hmmmnnn...... Good Point .....[] but, ....... I get his intent......[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 "But within that, it is the size of the sheet of air that is moving and how far it moves that matters, even for the same frequency." I think you are trying to talk about dispersion but it is hard to follow. That would be a product of total energy put into the room. That wouldn't really be the same thing as same SPL though since an SPL measurement is made at one point. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Q- How are you! (I'll be glad to). jw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Chops, In all honesty, I don't understand what he is trying to say. The Fs of a driver gives some indication of the bandwidth it is capable of effectively working across. Most decent DRs can produce a reasonably linear response over 3-4 octaves above the Fs. Horns are less because they give up bandwidth for efficency. Your analogy is not a good one because it would be quite a challenge to find a 5" "woofer" with an Fs at 30Hz. Well, I tried anyway. [] I guess what I was trying to say is that the larger driver would possibly have a "fuller" sound at the same SPL/frequency than the smaller driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 ""for the same SPL (say 100dB at a meter), a midrange producing a 400Hz signal moves the SAME amount of air as a woofer at 30Hz. " How do you figure? By that logic the K77 is moving the same amount of air as the K'Horns bass bin when it is playing at the same SPL... you really believe that? Simple example... take a woofer and play a 100hz tone through it at 100dB. Now play a 50hz tone at 100dB. For every octave you drop you need four times the excursion(stroke) to keep the SPL the same. Displacement = pi * R^2 * Stroke. If the bore stays the same and the stroke gets 4x longer guess what happens to displacement. Shawn" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Shawn, No, its not dispersion, it's mouth size (I guess that I'm being horn-centric again). The bass horn mouth acts (bear with me on this) as a diaphragm of air sort of like stretching cellophane over the mouth of the horn. That cellophane covers a large area yet doesn't move (vibrate) laterally very much, it doesn't have to, because of the large area that it covers. This concept also applies to direct radiators as well as horn mouths, as long as you ignore mass considerations. Smaller horn mouths (like midranges) using the same cellophane analogy, have to vibrate with more excursion to move the same amount of air as the bass horn with its large area. The same acoustical power (SPL) is produced, but the amplitudes are different, but the same total volume of air is moved by the theoretical "cellophane" diaphragm. The acoustical power is distributed differently between the two cases in that the distortion is related to amplitude, not area. The area and amplitude (excursion) is a ratio, and the more area the mouth (or diaphragm) covers, the less amplitude is required to produce a given SPL, comparitively speaking. More (or larger) excursion means higher distortion and large signal dynamic changes in smaller driver diaphragms will certainly increase the chances of overdriving either the driver or produce excessive distortion - and smaller horn throats increase the chances of producing throat overload distortion. Larger diaphragmic devices (drivers and horns) such as bass horns and large diameter drivers will exhibit a greater degree of dynamic flexibility without overtaxing the devices better at low frequencies where most electrical signal power resides with lower distortion than a smaller driver/horn combination producing the same frequency and SPL. There are physical limitations imposed. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 interesting analogy ... I've been missing the technical attributes of the Klipsch Forum, bud's .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted June 16, 2006 Author Share Posted June 16, 2006 Just thought that I would add that Bill did say 300 - 7000hz for the new 390. Did'nt say how flat. OK, you may continue. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 The technical stuff, as always -- is interesting, but it really boils down to the fact that Klipschorn owners simply have no choice but to opt for the lower crossover points. The debate is of more interest if you have a choice, but if you have no choice you're just happy that there is better driver for you. Still, in the home -- I'm sure an attenuated, 30lb compression driver will have obscenely low distortion levels -- and will sound fabulous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 "This concept also applies to direct radiators as well as horn mouths, as long as you ignore mass considerations." Which you can't do since the larger mouth also has a larger mass of air it has to 'move.' F = MA "Smaller horn mouths (like midranges) using the same cellophane analogy, have to vibrate with more excursion to move the same amount of air as the bass horn with its large area." You have measured this or you are just guessing this is the case? "and the more area the mouth (or diaphragm) covers, the less amplitude is required to produce a given SPL, comparitively speaking." That is not always true. Larger mouth horns tend to have less HF response then smaller horns because of the additional air mass is mass rolling off the drivers HF response. Yet according to your above statment the larger horn should have better HF response. Funny how tweeters use such itty bitty horns then.... "Larger diaphragmic devices (drivers and horns) such as bass horns and large diameter drivers will exhibit a greater degree of dynamic flexibility without overtaxing the devices better at low frequencies where most electrical signal power resides with lower distortion than a smaller driver/horn combination producing the same frequency and SPL." Again, you have measured this or are just guessing it to be the case? I'm quite sure this will not always be the case since you are completely neglecting efficiency. Something like a K'Horn or a LaScala would need nearly 10x the input power at 500hz compared to something like a 288 on a much smaller horn to produce the same SPL at say 500hz. Why? Because the smaller driver/horn better couples its diaphragms motion into the air. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Dean, "30lb compression driver will have obscenely low distortion levels -- and will sound fabulous." They do! Trying to measure a 288 on the 'big suckas' to see how deep they go but my computer is being difficult right now. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Dean, Reminds me of our phone conversation about how loud people played their LS and Khorns back in the '60s, etc. Or earlier on the Khorn. Most people just didn't play music that loud, so the K55 and K400 horn weren't going to have the distortion associated woth them that you may start to get with higher volumes. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 . We are "divided" into 2 camps, one with a lower crossover point for bass horns, and one with a higher crossover point, like those enamored with the Jubilee... essentially it boils down to the "flavor" or nature of the sound we prefer. I prefer my sound, without " flavor" from the bass bin ... ' my take is, "bass" is done by 150 - 200 hz there's yer " punch" hand off to the mid horn, for that "thwack" of the snare speaking strictly of a all horn loaded system here .... now, if the bass radiator, was a direct radiator ... i prefer 800-1200 hz x-over point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 . We are "divided" into 2 camps, one with a lower crossover point for bass horns, and one with a higher crossover point, like those enamored with the Jubilee... essentially it boils down to the "flavor" or nature of the sound we prefer. I prefer my sound, without " flavor" from the bass bin ... ' my take is, "bass" is done by 150 - 200 hz there's yer " punch" hand off to the mid horn, for that "thwack" of the snare speaking strictly of a all horn loaded system here .... now, if the bass radiator, was a direct radiator ... i prefer 800-1200 hz x-over point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 iiT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Warren.....Great explanation.....Glad to see you back on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Sometimes I think the problem lies with the words that are used in trying to describe the things that are happening. Take, "moving air" for example. At 100dB/30Hz, there is enough air coming off the face of a woofer that you can feel it. 10dB more and my wife could probably use it as a blow dryer. A tweeter at 100dB/15kHz doesn't appear to be moving much of anything -- especially a K-77.. OTOH, it makes sense that if they are both generating the same SPL -- they must be doing the same of something between me and drivers so my ears can perceive equal loudness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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