Forte2me Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Hi guys, first post, hoping to borrow from your wisdom. I have been an avid Klipsch fan for years and bought my Forte ll's back in '89 I believe. Didn't realize it at the time, but they could possibly be the last pair of front speakers I ever buy. I love the sound they produce, and as many of you know, they play anything well. For the past 15 years I have been using a Denon PMA 980r integrated amp (vintage 1991, 90 watts/ch) which seems to team pretty well with these speakers. For my HT setup I have an Onkyo ES600 pro processor, which has an 80 watt amp for the center channel and 2 20 watt amps for the rear surrounds in pro logic mode. I have a Klipsch center channel speaker and 2 JBL in-walls for my rear surrounds, about 9 feet high. Room is a 2 story, 18 foot ceiling, probably 20' by 18'. Here's the dilemma: I want to upgrade my HT to include Dolby Digital, and I want more power to my Forte ll's when I listen to music. I don't want to sacrifice music quality just to get better HT performance. I am thinking about either 1) buying Denon separates on ebay, with either a 5 channel amp like the older POA 5000 (100 w/ch x 5) or a combo of 2 channel amps like the Denon POA 2400a or 2800 (200w/ch), teamed with a Denon preamp/surround processor, or 2) buying a Denon 3806 to power everything. I have heard great things about the 3806 for HT but I am concerned that I may not be as happy when listening to 2 channel music as I might be via the first option. I think the $$$ spent would be about a wash, so there I am right on the fence, doing nothing. I am assuming I will have better power and amp sections for music by going with the separates, but better processing for HT by going with the 3806. Someone has recently suggested that I buy the 3806, and then add another external amp via the pre-outs to run the Forte ll's (like the Denon POA 2400a or 2800, or does anyone have any experience with Adcom amps with Forte's?) Any thoughts on the above? Which way would you push me? I am wearing myself out on this as I am ready to pull the trigger but don't want to make the wrong choice. Thanks for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Don't even blink add the outboard amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyT Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 another vote for outboard amps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I have used a Denon 3801 with 2 Acurus amps with Klipsch speakers for several years now. With the efficiency of your Forte's, I doubt you'll need more power. I would buy the Denon receiver and add outboard amps later if you wanted to. Keith PS> be careful about amp selection. Err on the warmer side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I had the 3802/03/05,all good avrs,separates,even the least Outaw combo sounds better for music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forte2me Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 Thanks for the input. So 3 votes for the Denon AVR plus outboard amp, 1 for the separates. Anyone else want to jump in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Depends on your budget. If budget is limited get the Denon 3806 now and you can always add a serious power amp later. Simply know no receiver can match a high end pre/pro. Even if you could buy the monster Denon receiver (the 5805 that has it all or close) you would not match the Anthem Statement D2 pre/pro in sound and video quality. Speaking of the D2 I am getting one,its a pre/pro that bests units costring over 10 grand and way more from the competition.The only real rival comes from Mark Levinson and costs a mad price of over 30K! Look at Anthem products,amazing value for the money.They beat the doors off Outlaw and just about anyone when your factor price/performance ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forte2me Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 EAR, My budget for now is probably around $1200 - $1400. That throws out any possiblity of a high end separate system, though through ebay it seems like I can pick up some decent used separates for about the same money as the 3806. I love the Denon sound with my speakers, but having said that have not really had the opportunity to test them with other amps outside of my Onkyo Integra amp which to my ear wasn't as good as the Denon. I want the HT upgrade over what I currently have, but also want my Forte's to sing when I am in 2 channel audio. Sounds like your vote would be to go for the separates, am I right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 EAR, My budget for now is probably around $1200 - $1400. That throws out any possiblity of a high end separate system, though through ebay it seems like I can pick up some decent used separates for about the same money as the 3806. I love the Denon sound with my speakers, but having said that have not really had the opportunity to test them with other amps outside of my Onkyo Integra amp which to my ear wasn't as good as the Denon. I want the HT upgrade over what I currently have, but also want my Forte's to sing when I am in 2 channel audio. Sounds like your vote would be to go for the separates, am I right? C'mon....for $10k you'll be done with all this,lol.I'd suggest looking at the Rotel 1057 avr(5 yr warranty),nice w/Klipsh,imo,and good 2ch.I had a 1056 for a little while($1150)and a 150 watt x 2 B&K(used $275).That was a nice 2 ch/HT setup for a reasonable price.Also the Outlaw separates are a great buy at about $1400. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forte2me Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 How do I hear a Rotel or an Outlaw with my Klipsch? I doubt a dealer is going to let me take one home. J.4 knee and Bobby T, did I misread you? By saying go with 'outboard amps', do you mean go separates with pre/pro and amps or buy the 3806 and add an outboard amp for the mains? I thought you meant the latter but maybe I am wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Just a comment about your question concerning listening to Outlaw's gear...... Although I haven't heard their stuff, a friend of mine here at work (who happens to own a pair of Forte's) purchased an Outlaw pre/pro and the 5x125 watt amp. He had the gear for about 2 weeks when a family emergency came up that required that the money ear-marked for the Outlaw stuff be re-directed towards the family issue. Side note.....Jim said that he was very impressed with the Outlaw stuff. From the sound quality to the build quality to the ease of setup. The Outlaw separates replaced a Yamaha HT reciever (not sure what model) and Jim said the difference with his Forte's was night & day. Anyhow....back to my story. Jim called Outlaw in hopes that they would take the equipment back and return his money. He was very up-front about why he needed to return the equipment and guess what the person at Outlaw said?? "No problem sir. Sorry to hear about your family issue. Here's your RA number. Please keep us in mind once you get back to the point of being able to purchase audio gear." I dunno about you, but that really impresses me. So, you might wanna give Outlaw a listen. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 How do I hear a Rotel or an Outlaw with my Klipsch? I doubt a dealer is going to let me take one home. Well....you have to go to a Rotel dealer and plunk down the cash or a credit card,take it home and try it,if you don't like it they should let you return it no problem,maybe ask to demo their display model at home. In the case of Outlaw,you call em' up,pay for what you want,try it for 30 days and keep it or send it back.It will cost you shipping(one way I think)but you'll have to sacrifice something to get the best you can afford.For me it was worth the shipping cost to demo the Outlaw,great company. I demo all gear I purchase at home and have returned much more than I'll ever buy,I demo all in my price range. Option D,buy whatever is easy and enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forte2me Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 What about the 'burn in' time you read about with new amps - how long does it take before you hear the post burn sound quality you are really looking for? If I go that route, what respectable used pre/pro I should be looking for on ebay to run it with since I will be knocking on the door of the upper limits of my budget? And then I'm back to the original question - better to go this route for the money or do the Denon 3806 AVR and add a good outboard amp (Anthem, Rotel, Outlaw, Denon, Adcom, etc) later on for the mains? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 One of the guys at work has been using a Denon 380X receiver with his Legend KLF-30 system but was frustrated that it would shut down on loud passages. The KLF-30 can be a bit of a challenging load. He borrowed a Denon 2 channel power amp to run the KLFs and not only does the system play far louder without shutdown, it also sounds way better. 2 channel is a whole new deal with far better imaging and dynamics and bass control. These are the typical improvements using high quality power amps rather than the amp stages in receivers. The preamp and processor differences are much smaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forte2me Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 Do you get the same imaging, dynamics and bass for the mains by using the 380X as a preamp with an outboard amp to power them, or do you need to go with a pro/pre plus the same outboard amp to hear better sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forte2me Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 Anyone have any thoughts on this? Also curious on the burn-in question above when auditioning a new amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankphess Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Adding an external amplifier will give you increased imaging, dynamic, bass, etc. because you are decreasing the work your pre/pro's power supply/amplifier has to do. An external amplifier does not have to from be the same manufacturer. Take a look on Audiogon.com to get an idea of the different types available. You will want a solid state amplifier if you are using a solid state pre/pro. As far as break in time for a new amp, you might not notice a difference until you listen for a length of time. You will notice that every time you listen to it, it will sound "better" each time, and of course each amplifier is different, so "break-in" time will vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forte2me Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 The burn in/ break in timeframe question came after Fish's recommendation to buy the amp, take it home and audition it, then return within the 30 days if unhappy with how it sounds with my speakers. Not having done this before, is 30 days enough time for the amp to adequately break in so you hear how it is really supposed to sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 If you don't like the sound the first few minutes you listen to it, you're probably not going to like it weeks later. Try to audition before you buy. Amps do sound different. The Acurus/Denon combo I use sounded surprisingly warm with Chorus II's. And I ain't a lover of that screechy upper-mid/hi sound. Actually, I was surprised because I had only used the II's with tube integrateds. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 The burn in/ break in timeframe question came after Fish's recommendation to buy the amp, take it home and audition it, then return within the 30 days if unhappy with how it sounds with my speakers. Not having done this before, is 30 days enough time for the amp to adequately break in so you hear how it is really supposed to sound? I don't want to put a time limit on anything but I'd give any gear 30-40 hrs before I make the final determination.If nothing else this makes sure your not just in a mood or other factors than can make a setup sound better or worse on a different day.If you have a setup 30 days and listen a while every few days you will have heard the best it can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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