Mike Lindsey Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 Very nice, Allan! I can only imagine how nice that table sounds! One day I will spring for the 3012 arm and the Ortofon SPU. It appears you have the brass bed plate. Do you also have the brass knife-edge bearings? Did you notice any kind of difference with these? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 I have a mono Ortofon for 78s as well. It takes about 5 minutes to swap out the CG25i for the 78 cartridge. That's one of the beautiful things about the SPU--EASY TO SWAP. The mono runs through Jogen Schou step up transformers and the SPU GT for stereo has the transformer in the headshell. I will have to shoot some decent pics this weekend and post them. The outboard rear armboard is made from 2" thick solid cherry and is L-shaped and glued and screwed to my original plinth. I spent a long time thinking about this before execution and it worked out pretty much perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 That is a really nice set up. Here is a pick of my table, just need to find an arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Mike, Congratulations on your new vinly setup! Having heard Allan's Thorens 124, I know it's a great setup when done properly. Enjoy the music! Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tychicum Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 That is a really nice set up. Here is a pick of my table, just need to find an arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Paul----what arm is on yours? Allen--right-o. Might as well sink a concrete column through my floor then into the ground, eh? md Mark, This post is not meant to rain on the "rediscovery" of these idler wheel tables, but I would like to mention there are some things in the Audiogon post that are a bit off base. I DO agree that these table offer a lot. On the other hand, when you look at the final numbers on the expenditures, to obtain the killer idler wheel table, you are into the range of some medium to fairly high end belt drive tables. It changes his opening premise that $200 takes you into super table status. High mass, attention to resonance frequency, superior bearings, better motors, are all items addressed in better belt drive tables today. As Allan has stated, paying attention to all the little details makes the difference, and that includes the plinth, as well as the table it rests on. I've also gone the additional step to address the voltage fed to my turntable motor by using the VPI SDS which I think even the idler wheel tables could benefit from. I'll start another post to display my resolution to the need of adding a concrete column. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 Yes, I certainly don't want to start a war between the 2 types of tables. And I agree, you certainly can't do it on a miniscule budget anymore as the tables themselves have gone up in price dramatically. Having said that, I have always liked the looks (or lack of them) of the older, plainer, vintage tables. The new ones just look too modern for me, and the rest of my system certainly doesn't look at all modern. I was looking for something that would sound great, but would also integrate well aesthetically with the gear I have already assembled. And I think this table fits the bill perfectly. It just so happens it sounds super to boot! [] I really would like to hear some of these newer tables so that I know what I am missing out on though. Regardless, I think this one is a keeper... at least for now. [] Mike Edit: Allan, please see my post a few posts back on the brass accessories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Paul----what arm is on yours? Allen--right-o. Might as well sink a concrete column through my floor then into the ground, eh? md Mark, This post is not meant to rain on the "rediscovery" of these idler wheel tables, but I would like to mention there are some things in the Audiogon post that are a bit off base. I DO agree that these table offer a lot. On the other hand, when you look at the final numbers on the expenditures, to obtain the killer idler wheel table, you are into the range of some medium to fairly high end belt drive tables. It changes his opening premise that $200 takes you into super table status. High mass, attention to resonance frequency, superior bearings, better motors, are all items addressed in better belt drive tables today. As Allan has stated, paying attention to all the little details makes the difference, and that includes the plinth, as well as the table it rests on. I've also gone the additional step to address the voltage fed to my turntable motor by using the VPI SDS which I think even the idler wheel tables could benefit from. I'll start another post to display my resolution to the need of adding a concrete column. Klipsch out. $50 for the TD-124 (16 years ago) $300 (approx) for all the jazz to rebuild the TD-124 $200 for the 3012 (ten years ago) $50 to $500 (including rebuild costs) for the various SPUs (I have 11 of them) $150 in materials for the plinth/armboard (made in my shop) $2200 for the Ikeda tonearm (bought 6 months ago) $250 for the custom stand including powder coating (made in my shop) $700 for the PS Audio P300 (5 years ago) $150 for the sandbox/airbladder $550 for the Jorgen Schou transformers (last year) The way the rig makes records sound? PRICELESS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Looks great Mike. Makes it worth the journey you went through. I guess I can turn my cell phone back on now[]. I was just listening to some Zeppelin 1 last night on my new 124/SME/Denon set up and it possibly could have been the best I've ever heard it. Per our conversation the other day, I think eliminating that last tiny bit of hum I was getting has helped a lot. Now the 124 runs almost as quiet and my Linn Lingo. Their was definitely a noticeable improvement in the clarity of individual voices and instruments. The idlers do seem to improve with some tender loving care and money! I've got a couple of Garrards that were pretty noisy and I have gradually calmed them down too. Maybe some of the idler wheel rumble talk comes from people hearing 30 and 40 year turntables that aren't quite up to snuff. The motors in these old beasts can really stand a complete disassembly, cleaning, lubing, new bearing plates etc. Same goes for their main bearings and idler wheels. I stumbled into another Thorens 124, that I hope to start rebuilding soon. I'll take a lot photos this time to document the fun and excitement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 Looks great Mike. Makes it worth the journey you went through. I guess I can turn my cell phone back on now[]. Yeah... heh, heh. [] Haven't tried any Zep yet, but have played a bunch of Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, classical, jazz (the Kind of Blue sounds incredible) and everything in between. I am addicted, I tell ya! [] Allan - for the 3rd and last time, did the brass bed plate (and assuming the brass knife-edge bearing) make any difference? Not that I'm in any hurry to start tweaking, but just curious about the hype. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Sorry! Just noticed the question. My 3012 is a 3012R with the plastic bearing. I always wanted to swap in the SME metal bearing but then was offered a package deal on the bronze bearing and the bed plate and decided to go for it. The bed plate makes NO DIFFERENCE that I can hear--NONE. The metal bearing DOES matter--it sharpens up the focus quite a bit and that's important to me because the SPU is such a "soft" sounding cartridge. It's not a "light years" difference, but it's a tweak and one I am very happy to have tried. Your 3009 is an early model with the metal bearing, is it not? If so, I don't think the bronze bearing would make ANY difference. Plus, intstalling the bearing is a FLAT OUT B!TCH of a job. It took me 10 mintues to take the arm apart and FOUR HOURS to put it back together!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Sorry! Just noticed the question. Plus, intstalling the bearing is a FLAT OUT B!TCH of a job. It took me 10 mintues to take the arm apart and FOUR HOURS to put it back together!! Yea Mike, if you had trouble pinching your headshell leads tighter, you don't want to be replacing the knife bearing. [] There's one little screw that almost takes the dexterity of a brain surgeon to finaggle back into place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 WOW! I come home from the Pilgrimage in Hope, and all of a sudden Allan and Paul are best buds! I guess you guys must be feeling the love, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 Thanks, Alan! Yeah, I have the early II version with the metal bearing. That's the kind of information I was looking for. Now Scott... I could have probably gotten the crimps to work after I crimped one too far, but the real problem was pulling one off the wire leads. After having messed with them this last go-round I would now consider myself an expert, and don't foresee any problems in the future. [] BTW, I did put the extra rider weight on last night and it was a bear to get it balanced just right using the Shure Tracking Gauge. Did you have a similar issue? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Yeah I was just kidding you about the leads. Alan's right though, taking the old bearing off is easy but there is stuff inside the armtube that comes loose and makes re-assembly a real treat. I had same problem with the extra rider weight. It makes setting the tracking weight a much more sensitive issue. I still ike it on though at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 Yeah... this is where a digital would come in handy I think. I may just break down and get one of those contraptions. Maybe Allan can comment on the one he ordered from Hong Kong. As for the rest of the setup that tomearm is very versatile. You have adjustments for absolutly everyhing. I have never been able to adjust tonearm height before (VTA I believe) and it appears mine is now dead level when the stylus is on the record. I know there is a test for VTA but can't remember what it is. I have a printout somewhere explaining it. I guess there isn't really an adjustment for azimuth, but it is very close according to the Hi Fi News test record. When playing the signal in mono it reverses the polarity (or something like that) and is supposed to cancel each channel out so that there is nothing coming out of the speakers. I can only hear a faint sound at normal listening levels, and then only a slight sound when cranked. Since it's mono, I'm not sure whether it's a problem in the left or the right channel. I remember it being a bigger problem (much louder) with the Shure cartridge, so I know I am close here. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 The Hong Kong digital scale is great! It took five weeks to get here, but it works well. I track my mono cartrdige at 3.75 grams on the old Garrard scale and the digital scale shows a reading of 3.83 grams--which means the old Garrad is pretty good!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 That's good to know. They say the Shure is good to within a tenth as well. If you could email me or pm me the link to that scale I would greatly appreciate it. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 This is the guy: http://cgi.ebay.com/DIGITAL-STYLUS-GUAGE_W0QQitemZ9743538488QQihZ008QQcategoryZ64620QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 Thanks! Just bought one! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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