Need Turntable advice

[mtber101]

I was at a bar/ lounge the other night and the majority of music they

play is off of LP's. I'm completely lost here. I

currently have an Outlaw 990 which has a mono input.

Should I just go with a cheap player or spend a little more and get

something that should last me awhile. Any advice in this area

would be more than helpful.

I get lost when power supplies and pre/amps are thrown into the

mix. My 990 should act as the pre/amp correct? I came

across the Linn LP12...but is a little pricey...maybe used?

I'm completely new to lp's... I guess they were a little before my generation. So let me know as much or as little.

Thanks ahead of time,

Ben

[maxg]

OK - lets go one step at a time:

Do you mean a mono input? Do you want to play only mono LP's? Remember the majoriy of LP's from the 1960's onwards were stereo - just like your CD player.

In order to connnect your chosen turntable (TT) to an integrated amp like yours you do need a phono stage. Your amp may or may not have one built in already - you need to check it out - but it probably doesn't.

If you are missing a phono stage you can insert an external one between the TT and the amp. Basically the outputs (RCA's and earth connection usually) from the TT plug into phono stage and then 2 RCA's go into any normal input on your amp. With this setup you can use any of the inputs on the amp - CD / Tuner / Aux....

Now whichever route you go for the phono stage you will need to take into account the type of cartridge (the needle and the box it is mounted on) . There are 2 types - MM and MC. Without going into the why's and wherefore's of the thing the basic difference is that MM has a higher output than MC. There are phono stages that are MM only, MC only and ones that can support either. Those that do both are usually more expensive.

Even if you have an MM only phono stage it is still possible to run an MC cartridge by adding another unit called a step up transformer. This raises the output of the MC cartridge sufficiently to be able to run with an MM stage. This is only a concern for later I would say - but bear it in mind.

If your amp has a built in phono stage then chances are it is MM only.

I should also mention, for completeness, that at the bottom end of some of the ranges of TT's out there are options that include TT's with built in phono stages. These can be plugged into any input on your amp directly (except the phono input if there is one).

Now where to start?

Ok - there are many and various options here:

You can find brand new units from as little as $300 (Project, possibly MusicHall). These produce quite reasonable sound but are unlikely to be your end point unless vinyl is merely an occasional pleasure.

You can find second hand units for even less than that. The general rule is that the more you spend - the better the sound - as long as you match your components together well. In the early days just let your dealer advise you - AND GET DEMOS. He make say it sounds great - you may disagree - you are right (always).

Obviously if you find a second hand unit for the same price as a new unit one would certainly expect the used unit to sound better.

Now there is plenty more information to be had - others will doubtless chime in - but dont get put off by the complexity - it is all rather easier than it sounds here. Just listen to advice and your ears.

Just for reference - I was where you are now about 6 years ago. I just walked into a local supplier and walked out 20 minutes later with a Project RM4 - complete with arm, cartridge, phono stage and cables. I dont know if they do those anymore - but there are certainly similar, probably better products in the current range if not. From memory the total cost of that splurge was 475 Euros - or about $550.

That table kept me going (through numerous upgrades) for about 4 years. It is largely how I learnt all this stuff.

[dubai2000]

As usual, excellent advice given by Max [].

Let me add a separate phono stage that is basic, but still enjoyable: the Pro-Ject Phono Box (I guess now it's the so-called SE verion). Those units often turn up used and I can't see much of a risk getting it second-hand.

It's for MM cartridges ony, but again many people are happy without going the MC route (it's cheaper as well....most of the time []).

In terms of TT itself it depends how 'daring' you are. Max's way of starting things is certainly fine....BUT only if one finds a reliable dealer.

Personally I'd pick up a good second-hand unit, do some internet research how to set it up (plenty available) and go from there.

Which leaves the question: which model? From a German perspective I'd say go Thorens - not for nationalistic reasons, but they are easily available. Take the TD160 for example: even with the original arm it can sound pretty good, plus you'll find enough info on how to mod it if you feel like it at a later stage. Obviously Thorens has built 'better' TTs than that, but for a start it's really fine - IMO - and YES, I can appreciate other brands as well....but still find most Thorens models more durable than....Pro-Jects ....again just my opinion [].

In terms of cartridge - provided there is none with the table you'll get, or it's simply too worn out - I guess a few suggestions will be forthcoming - otherwise check the vinyl section over at the Audio Asylum.

Anyway, good luck with your vinyl experiment.....it's worth it!!!

Wolfram

[Big Piney]

I will add a thought if you are completely new to vinyl. CLEANLINESS IS IMPERITIVE!!! I began my vinyl buying in the late 60's and continued until the early 80's when it became hard to get any vinyl. I never played a disc without cleaning it first. I have always used DiscWasher and now I can still play an album I bought in 1971 and there are no scratches, hisses, pops, etc. I got totally anal about it to the point where I would wash my hands before handling a disc. That carries on over to this day with CD's and DVD's. I catch myself teaching my grandkids this technique with varying results.

Cleanliness...

[RAPTORMAN]

You'll get good advice here from the experts. My only advice is make sure you like analog sound before blowing some serious cash on your analog front end. I've heard of too many folks who got out of vinyl because they couldn't handle the click and pops, the hassle of cleanning, cueing, adjusting the VTA,VTF etc. For me those are all the reason why I got into analog.[] The involvement in musical reproduction is "Pure Fun".

[colterphoto1]

Check around here, there are a few Turntable threads going on right now. Myself, I just purchased a Thorens TD125MKII from another Forum member to replace my ancient Technics 1700.

M

[rplace]

All good advice so far. I was in your position not too long ago. Did a lot of research. Borrowed an older Thorens to make sure I was willing to get back into vinyl.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

What I ended up settling on was a newer style table but used. If you buy used and get a table that is well know you can easily sell it for about what you have in it if you decide you don't like the "work" involved. I can't possibly imagine you won't like the sound. And don't let the work scare you...it is really not that big of a deal and the sonic pay off is tremendous.

Not sure of you budget, but if you have $400-500 to spare you can get a good used Rega, Music Hall, Pro-ject or possibly a Sota. For that price you should get the whole set up of TT, arm and MM cartridge. As max pointed out you may or may not need something to put between your TT and receiver. Figure $150 for a decent used model there. You can surely spend a whole lot less or a TON more. But for $500 you can get a very, very nice sounding vinyl set up. Now is the time to buy...used audio gear is on the cheap side till fall.

[dbflash]

Once he buys a TT and he is ready to go, where are you guys buying albums?

I have been kicking around this same question about getting back into album's.

I have about 600 albums that have been boxed up for a couple years, so that will get me started.

I was going to buy a TT Monday, but I called my music store and asked if my new favorite Cd's (I bought Saturday) are available on album's and they are not.

I only know Music Direct. Besides ebay, where else can albums be found?

Thanks

Danny

[dbflash]

Mark,

Thanks for the link.

Another reason I'm holding back is I don't want to pull my Peach out of my system. I know I can get the BB, but I have a 3 month old Audible illusions M3A that I bought right before the Peach became available.

I'm looking at a Rega P5. The TT I sold (like an idiot) was a Rega P2. I loved the sound and I really like the fact it's pretty much "plug and play". I'm kinda getting tired of tweaking, though another TT I'm looking at is VPI, because I can upgrade down the road when I get in the tweaking mood.

Oh well I'll keep reading and figure out what to do.

Does it ever end?

Danny

[mtber101]

Thanks for all the input guys.

I would like to be able to do stereo and mono. Is that

possible? Right now the only LP's are of my aunts and uncles

which have been in a garage for sometime now. They may not play

very well.

As for the work in playing vinyl.... that's why I want to get into it .

So the piece that I may need to go between my pre/amp and tt would be

called a what? And then if i'm understanding this right...some of

the entry level tt's come with it built in? How would it connect

to the 990? Simplely by rca's?

Thanks again guys

[scott0527]

Thanks for all the input guys.

I would like to be able to do stereo and mono. Is that possible? Right now the only LP's are of my aunts and uncles which have been in a garage for sometime now. They may not play very well.

As for the work in playing vinyl.... that's why I want to get into it .

So the piece that I may need to go between my pre/amp and tt would be called a what? And then if i'm understanding this right...some of the entry level tt's come with it built in? How would it connect to the 990? Simplely by rca's?

Thanks again guys

It would be most commonly called a Phono Preamp. I think most of the turntables that have one built in are cheap, junk. Unless it's an vintage EMT. No need to go there.

So you get yourself a phono preamp that will have two input RCA's that you connect your turntable to and two output RCA's that you connect to one of your spare inputs on your 990( commonly called "line level inputs").

You can play mono and stereo although it may or may not be true mono. Don't worry about that yet, Stereo is where you want to be for now.

What kind of albums do your aunt and uncle have?

[rplace]

What kind of albums do your aunt and uncle have?

[6] LOL my exact thought as soon as I read it. If they are old Jazz Blue Notes they are worthless...I'll be right over to help you get rid of them. Same with any Classic Rock that looks to be in good shape. [6]

Seriously, grab them all and stash them some place not too hot and keep them on edge. You can figure out later if they are keepers or not. Don't let them slip away.

[mtber101]

Haha...I've found a couple hundred of them but haven't had time to thru

them. Could take awhile Although my aunt was big into

duran duran...

Anyway I cleaned up the Technics SL-d205. Everything seems to be

in working order. My apartment with all my gear is a little over

1000 miles away right now so all I have is a pair of klipsch promida

2.0 ultra's with me. The tt has a left and right rca coming out

of it. I went to radio shack and got a female left and right rca

to an 1/8th inch mini. However once getting home i saw the

adapter was phono.....would that be the reason for only hearing audio

out of the left speaker?

It is a direct drive..so no belts to worry about replacing but would I benefit from replacing anything else?

Time to wait for some replies by going thru the collection

[rplace]

mtber101, where in PA are you?

Just a thought but looking at all your gear (RF and Sunfire nice!) any chance you are considering a Sunfire Theater Grand processor down the road? The reason I ask is because I have one the, TGIV to be exact, and it has a very decent MM phono stage; the thing you need between the TT and you Outlaw. It worked great until I moved my TT to an all tube system. If you plan on running the TT along with the HT gear you might want to kick that idea around.

[mtber101]

Thanks for the thought but I was thinking about going with the TGIV but

ended up with the 990. The dealer has the same setup I have now

before and said it sounded great...so i figured I'd save a little

money. Thanks though

[mtber101]

Thanks for the thought but I was thinking about going with the TGIV but

ended up with the 990. The dealer has the same setup I have now

before and said it sounded great...so i figured I'd save a little

money. Thanks though

I did find a receiver here with a phono input. Is phono

stereo? How is the phono input different than something a cd

player wouldn't be connected to? The tt has much more volume when

connected to the phono input....however the speakers they have....are

not so good.

[scott0527]

Haha...I've found a couple hundred of them but haven't had time to thru them. Could take awhile Although my aunt was big into duran duran...

Anyway I cleaned up the Technics SL-d205. Everything seems to be in working order. My apartment with all my gear is a little over 1000 miles away right now so all I have is a pair of klipsch promida 2.0 ultra's with me. The tt has a left and right rca coming out of it. I went to radio shack and got a female left and right rca to an 1/8th inch mini. However once getting home i saw the adapter was phono.....would that be the reason for only hearing audio out of the left speaker?

It is a direct drive..so no belts to worry about replacing but would I benefit from replacing anything else?

Time to wait for some replies by going thru the collection

Again, I think you'll need a phono preamp even if you want to play it through your computer and/or promedia 2.0. That is probably the reason you aren't getting correct sound out of the turntable. Turntables put out a tiny little signal that most modern equipment is not ready for. That is a very dumbed down explanation. See if your local Best Buy or Rat Shack has something like this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RECOTON-Audio-Stereo-Phono-Preamplifier-Model-SP-2_W0QQitemZ200010955847QQihZ010QQcategoryZ14974QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

You could probably stand for a new cartridge or at least a new stylus for your cartridge. We would need to know what the name and number on your cartridge is to help with that.

[rplace]

Here is a nice TT, arm, cart and clamp for you. First day listed on audiogon.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1159125753

All you need besides this is the phono preamp.

With less then 40 hours use the cartridge is not even brokein in. $425 is a pretty decent price for such a new MMF-5.

If you decide vinyl is not for you, you should get all or more (possibly) of your money back in the fall/winter.

[kaiser SET say]

Or for another good choice but a little more layout this is nice[]

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1159166716

Rich, my buddy is finally coming out of his funk and we spoke today, hope to have you a number on that Basis combo soon, he's already trying to get me into some high dollar Synergistic speaker cables for my Nauts!

[mtber101]

Hey Guys,

I've been listening to a lot of vinyl on the Technics SL-D205 and I'm

loving the sound. However I have no idea how this table compares

to anything. I'm also using an old Marantz JR640 receiver

with phono input and some ok sounding speakers.

Would it be worth my time to replace the cartridge and stylus? On

some of the new vinyl I've purchased I hardly have any noise (cracking

etc).

I need to get my hands on Discwash like BIg Piney said but my local

music store wants $30 for it when it retails for $20. However

amazon does have it for $9.

My Outlaw 990 does have a phono input with ground...I'm gonna see how this sounds when I get back to my place on Monday.

I was also looking into a Tube phono preamp. Would I still get a

tube sound when it goes thru the 990? The Bellari VP129 looks

like a good value and has some great reviews. But it says its

made for magnetic pickups? I'm a little lost what that is...can

anyone shine some light on this for me?

Lastly when the stylus is on the record should I be able to hear the

music that the stylus is making from touching the record or is that a

sign of a cheap turntable?