I need some expert advise please

[colterphoto1]

We have established a primary 2 ch listening environment, but still do not know the source material. Does our gentle reader prefer rap music or soft jazz? At what volumes?

I'm kinda siding with the Peach folks here. But I do understand how much impact adding a good musical sub to a setup can add to the impact of music. To my ears, most recorded music is anemic in bass fundamentals compared to the live event. So Doc has a very good point that the two way RF series could be assisted greatly in TMD by the addition of a quality sub used judisciously.

Michael

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I'm getting out of the debate business unless I can bill for it.

Bottom line, Juicymusic Peach for sale in perfect condition for a great price with a rare tube. Many here think it just might help more than a subwoofer for 2 channel listening. email me if interested.

[Audio Flynn]

Shure SM 57 microphone

TypeDynamicFrequency Response40 to 15,000 Hzview largerPolar PatternUnidirectional (cardioid), rotationally symmetrical about microphone axis, uniform with frequencySensitivity (at 1,000 Hz)Open Circuit Voltage: -56.0 dBV/Pa* (1.6 mV)*(1 Pa = 94 dB SPL)ImpedanceRated impedance is 150 ohms (310 ohms actual) for connection to microphone inputs rated low impedance.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I offer up a modestly priced mainstay of pro audio; I used 100 years

ago in another life that still has relevance. Shure states a frequency

response that to me is pretty realistic.

They did not have a model that went lower.

Certainly a line feed of a synthesizer can get to unnatural lows under

20 hz. Recording limitations and the stupidity of compression will make

most recordings in the 40-15,000 range.

Speaker set up is a time consuming enough process; sub refelections can

be a real pain in a room. Bass turns to BBBOM too easily to make

software non musical.

If you are enthralled with your 2 channel playback, buy a sub to

enhance the experience; otherwise amps, source and software will yeild

a better return.

[DrWho]

I hate to argue, but you are ignoring the effects of boundary gain. Even an SM58 will easily pass 10Hz information. Ultimately it's a mute point because you can measure the spectral content of any recording and see what kind of bandwidth is required of the speakers.

Another side issue is that quite often mics are used in non-classical methods in attempt to achieve certain signature timbres. Heck, mics aren't even the only thing used for recording sound either.

And if a room is the cause of the boom, then blaim the room and not the speaker. Likewise, the implementation of acoustical treatment is by far one of the most important upgrades. Nothing will sound right in a poor acoustical environment.

I don't listen to rap, but the low frequency content is always concentrated in the 45-70Hz region. Very little rap if any has anything below 40Hz let alone 30Hz. The only advantage to having a sub with rap is that it makes it easier to way over crank 80Hz and below.

[Jay481985]

I disagree.... There is quite alot of 20 hertz information just most systems can not play it properly... It is true there is alot of 45-80 hertz bass on rap but if you listen to older rap there is alot more 20 hertz notes as I guess the rap mixers realized that most people do not have speakers capable of 20 hertz and they put more boomy bass to replace it.

[Audio Flynn]

I hate to argue, but you are ignoring the effects

of boundary gain. Even an SM58 will easily pass 10Hz information.

Ultimately it's a mute point because you can measure the spectral

content of any recording and see what kind of bandwidth is required of

the speakers.

Strange an established company would miss on marketing the 10hz functionality.

Another

side issue is that quite often mics are used in non-classical methods

in attempt to achieve certain signature timbres. Heck, mics aren't even

the only thing used for recording sound either.

Signature timbres => Colorations?

And

if a room is the cause of the boom, then blaim the room and not the

speaker. Likewise, the implementation of acoustical treatment is by far

one of the most important upgrades. Nothing will sound right in a poor

acoustical environment.

Tough to change rooms for most folks. I agree with

accoustic treatments but WAF and friends thinking you are a complete

Audio Loon are considerations.

I don't listen to

rap, but the low frequency content is always concentrated in the

45-70Hz region. Very little rap if any has anything below 40Hz let

alone 30Hz. The only advantage to having a sub with rap is that it

makes it easier to way over crank 80Hz and below.

That must make Rap more musical and socially relevant. Or was that deviant...

[Audible Nectar]

I also agree with the Peach recommendation. That preamp just RULES for 2 channel musicality, and is the perfect way to make an HT more musical than most HT receivers can allow. The Peach imparts improvements far more expensive sounding than the asking price - even at retail price, and is the perfect way to impart the most musicality possible in a home theater. You can even enjoy solid state amplification with tube sound benefits - much of the benefits of tubes will be realized by the use of the Peach. And you'll still enjoy all of the toys that your current HT receiver has, but your two channel music performance will improve GREATLY.

It is very true that adding good subwoofers will improve your system, too. But I would get the Peach first, then tweak the bass later. The sub addition will be better understood (especially if used for 2 channel music) if the rest of the system is at it's best. And if you are mechanically inclined, there are some very good kit options for subwoofers that won't break the bank.

I find that those who must combine thier home theaters and two channel system musicality in one system are SUPERBLY serviced by ownership of the Peach. There is no better unit on the market that allows tube 2 channel sweetness and musicality with the flexibility to integrate your power HT. The Peach allows the best of both worlds. Of all of Mark's JM products, I'm most impressed with this one, because it is the perfect pill for HT. Those who want HT and top 2 channel performance in one system can now have the best of both worlds. No longer do they have to choose between one or the other. This was (and is) a much needed component on this forum.

[Duke Spinner]

Shure SM 57 microphone

Type

Dynamic

Frequency Response

40 to 15,000 Hz

view larger

Polar Pattern

Unidirectional (cardioid), rotationally symmetrical about microphone axis, uniform with frequency

Sensitivity (at 1,000 Hz)

Open Circuit Voltage: -56.0 dBV/Pa* (1.6 mV)

*(1 Pa = 94 dB SPL)

Impedance

Rated impedance is 150 ohms (310 ohms actual) for connection to microphone inputs rated low impedance.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I offer up a modestly priced mainstay of pro audio; I used 100 years ago in another life that still has relevance. Shure states a frequency response that to me is pretty realistic.

They did not have a model that went lower.

Certainly a line feed of a synthesizer can get to unnatural lows under 20 hz. Recording limitations and the stupidity of compression will make most recordings in the 40-15,000 range.

Speaker set up is a time consuming enough process; sub refelections can be a real pain in a room. Bass turns to BBBOM too easily to make software non musical.

If you are enthralled with your 2 channel playback, buy a sub to enhance the experience; otherwise amps, source and software will yeild a better return.

A.F. ... you make ME smile.......

10's, thousands, millions of LP's, CD's have ben recorded using the venerable SM-57........

show me ....

some below 40Hz ..outta that small, stiff diaphram

the mike was meant to wthstand being stuffed into a speaker cab, NOT for Hi-Fi re-production..

now...

say, Neumann ...

that's different

Great Point ....[]

[Duke Spinner]

I hate to argue, but you are ignoring the effects of boundary gain. Even an SM58 will easily pass 10Hz information. .

C'mon now, ... Who ...

I been mikin' Leslie's for 35 years now ...

there ain't no 20 hz info comin' from the SM series mikes

much less 10 Hz .....

B.S>

[Audio Flynn]

I hate to argue, but

you are ignoring the effects of boundary gain. Even an SM58 will easily

pass 10Hz information. .

C'mon now, ... Who ...

I been mikin' Leslie's for 35 years now ...

there ain't no 20 hz info comin' from the SM series mikes

much less 10 Hz .....

B.S>

Thanks Duke!

[Duke Spinner]

the mike was meant to wthstand being stuffed into a speaker cab, NOT for Hi-Fi re-production..

the SM57, of course

[DrWho]

lol Duke, you ain't using the mic correctly then []

Take the cover off an SM58 and put it up underneathe a hollow drum, just below the drum head - just far enough away where you don't bottom the diaphragm out and clip the crap outta your signal. You get a crap load of low frequency information (it approaches DC)...granted it's not very clean, but that's why you lowpass it and use it in conjuction with another mic (don't forget to invert the polarity it if it's above the drum head). It's a great way to fatten up any drum sound...and if you want it even fatter you can delay the entire channel up to 1/4 wavelength of the lowpass implemented. You'll probably end up high passing it to avoid excessive cone movement on your monitors. But high passing totally changes the signature of the sound due to the change in amplitude modulation - it's a system of tradeoffs (just like everything audio).

And how do I know it was as low as 10Hz? I was curious one day why the channel was clipping so early with no apparent volume whatsoever. So I threw one of these channels on a software FFT and instantly realized why. The monitors effectively dropped off at 40Hz so it wasn't going to be audible.

So why use a 58? Because they're pretty much indestructable and cheap and distort in a way condusive to the application. Yes, studio engineers pick mics based on their flavor to achieve a desired outcome...which is rarely ever trying to reproduce the original live sound in the studio. Why aim for the original voice when you can achieve something even better?

[Duke Spinner]

I still beg to differ, Who ........[]

That's Not 10 Hz..."information" .... at all ...

It's Saturation of the coil / magnet assembly, the DC shoulda been yer clue

drums don't output DC

your FFT shoulda showed the gross distortion of the waveform

[colterphoto1]

for the third and final time.

What kind of music is this guy listening too?

Discussing the purposefull designed rolloff of a principally vocal mic is so far off topic that I'm leaving this thread.

I will leave you with this.

There is plenty of musical information in the 20-40 Hz region. I just listened to the Diana Krall Live in Paris DVD- without my THX subs it was a dead performance. I tried it with just the LS and added the subs.

Night and Day.

Michael

[Duke Spinner]

you shoulda listened with the K-Horns...............[]

[Tex]

My musical taste are everything but rap music. If I buy the peach preamp, what would you recommend for a good amp. Thanks.

[Cal Blacksmith]

Tex,

see what you started?[]

The peach is a good pre but (there will be flack for this comment) as I have

said before, there are a lot of other fine pre-amps out there. Horns love tubes

to be sure and though I love tubes, they are not for everyone. There are more

than a few here that have SS somewhere in the audio chain.

You will hear lots of ways to spend your money but in the end it is YOUR

money[] Separate components will normally give the best sound but there are

some mighty fine sounding integrated units out there also. Take your time and

see what you can listen to in the way of different gear. You might not like the

sound you hear from a recommended unit and it would be a shame to spend a ton

of money and be disappointed.

If you do go with tubes, most any of the old names will make you proud. Fisher,

Dynaco, Scott and the like all made fine units then there are the high end

units like Macintosh etc. One thing to watch out for is that an older unit will

need to be refreshed. The caps drift and go bad and need to be replaced so you

need to take that into account when you are looking for equipment. This is true

for separate units or integrated.

Different topologies will sound different. A SET amp will

have very good mids but will be weak in the bass control (I can hear the

screams now!) A push pull unit can sound very good with good bass control but

may be a little softer in mids. An amp with lots of distortion will sound like

it has a wider sound stage while a cleaner amp will have better instrument

location and be more focused Is one better than another? No, but they ARE

different.

Again I say, before spending your money on what someone

tells you to buy, take time and listen to different equipment, decide what YOU

like and then your choices will be clearer.

[Tex]

Thanks for all the info Cal!

[Duke Spinner]

Ya, Tex ..

you'll find we tend to drift offa target frequently

lot's of us like to argue over minutia

[DrWho]

I think my defense of subwoofers got blown outta proportion too...it

always comes back to the music and determining where the greatest gains

are to be achieved.

Here's a rather interesting discussion with Rupert Neve (that other

thread caught my attention and I figured I'd sit down and learn more

about the guy)...the live chats over at PSW are quite fun to partake in

actually. I usually just sit back and listen.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/chat_psw/transcripts/rupert.shtml

(check the little tidbit about the importance of frequency/phase

linearity down to 10Hz...he also has a real cool perspective on

tubes/SS and all sorts of crap) []