martindemon Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 I was wondering about my future sub. I don't need power. I mean 100W would be enough for me. What i want is Deep bass. My room is quite small (12'x14'x8'(height)). So here is my question. Must i buy the ksw-15, knowing i will never use it's full (even mid) power, just to have the full bass extension or would a ksw-12 go lower than the specified 26 Hz? I mean, with proper placement and considering that my room is small (with wood floor), can i hope to ear 20Hz without cranking the volume at police level? ------------------ If it's not broken, don't fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 First, don't worry about "power" specs. They don't tell you anything about how a sub will sound. If you compare a little bitty sub, like the Sunfire True Subwoofer, with a really, really big sub, like the REL Studio III, you'll find that the REL will blow the Sunfire out of the room while using far less power. Only time power really comes into play is if (a) you're talking about buying an amp to use with a non-powered subwoofer, or ( you're comparing two powered subwoofers whose other specs, except for power, are pretty much identicle. What matters is how deep will it go and how loudly will it do that, which power specs cannot help you determine. I'd point out that NEITHER the KSW-12 NOR the KSW-15 will output significant undistorted signal at 20Hz, but they're not really designed to do that. If you're serious about getting extension down to something close to 20Hz, you're gonna have a short list to choose from. Poke about in this forum, you'll get a good idea of how folks in here think the various brands compare by reading the back posts. Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 as ray says, try this thread that is exploring this issue as we speak: http://216.37.9.58/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000750.html or maybe that inspired this thread??? (casual analysis ) ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partaymon Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Ray!! Dude!! I love my Sunfire True Sub! Ya just have to position it correctly! I have a fairly small room-- 12 x 15, 8 ft. ceiling, with a 6 ft wide arched entry. Placing the Sunfire in the front corner I have found that certain recordings (Seal, Ziggy Marley, Madonna, etc.) at high volumes are very detrimental to anything hanging on my walls! The Sunfire is very sensative to placement and phase adjustment... but once dialed in, it's quite capable of loosening dental work. Not to say that there aren't other things out there that are awsome as well --I'm currently eyeing a pair of KP115s on ebay that ought to run well of my Carver Cube ;-b! Partay on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 partaymon, Ah ha, another Sunfire user.Good to see fellow Sunfire supporters here. Yes the Sunfire Mark II can go very low and has a very BIG output.In my room the Mark II is clean down to about 20Hz,25Hz up its a beast. Its sad to see only the tiny Junior on TN list of subs,the junior as good as it is(for a 9" cube sub!)cannot begin to match the Mark II and far less the awesome Signature.The Signature has big output at 20Hz!How about that?And its a 13" cube!!! Martin, Ray is right about the KSW series subs,if you want very deep bass forget these.The RSW15 should be alot better,still I doubt about big output at 20Hz.You better take a look at HSU and SVS.And if you want a tiny sub the Sunfire(Mark II and Signature) and Velodyne HGS(10,12)and SPL(1000,1200)should do it. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martindemon Posted November 13, 2001 Author Share Posted November 13, 2001 This sub has a BIG "neighbor hate" potential!!! Do they (the sunfire models) have big big coils or is it just the dust cap that is so big? The power rating of this baby (signature) is huge! 13" side cube??!!! Damn now i have to wait i think... It's something like 2500$CAD... Perhaps the mark ii would be enough... I have to think about these... Thanks for the info! But thinking about it ; does the 8" driver of the mark ii really go down to 20Hz??!!! Really this is a discovery, a great progress in subs! ------------------ If it's not broken, don't fix it. This message has been edited by martindemon on 11-14-2001 at 12:04 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 Martin, I have my Sunfire Mark II since about...uh over two years now I think.The Mark II uses two 8"(specified as 10")units,one passive and one active. The cabinet is a very small 11" cube!On opposite sides you have the drivers.The active driver has a 3" voice coil and a 14lbs magnet(around 30lbs magnetic structure!!!for such a small driver),the back EMF generated by this driver needs a very powerful amp like the one Bob carver designed for his subs.The amp is capable of delivering 2700W RMS into the load of the voice coil.In normal use the drivers gets about 270W. The passive radiator uses the same basket with a weight loaded membrane. Only at tuning frequency do both drivers move about the same. The active and passive drivers have a peak to peak of 2.35 inches!And linear is over 1.5 inches!This enables the tiny(close to 50lbs)cube to deliver the output no other tiny(11" cube) sub can. In my room the output is still huge at 25Hz and good output to about 20hz.This is something else I tried a Velodyne HGS10,but it had a problem(amp)and I returned it.Great output too,close to the Sunfire Mark II. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martindemon Posted November 14, 2001 Author Share Posted November 14, 2001 Thanks for the info Ears! Where can i buy sunfire subs at montreal? I live at Trois-Rivieres but i could certainly make a trip to listen to a sunfire... ------------------ If it's not broken, don't fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 At the tuning point...the driver should barely be moving. The MKII has about 18mm of linear excursion each way...this very good. However, it's cone area is so small...it ends up with the linear air moving capable of say a below-avg 12" driver. When Keele reviewed the servo15 and the MKII for AUDIO...he found the had approx 2x as much clean output(10% thd limit)as the MKII. Unless you must have a tiny cube...I think you'd be much better off looking into the servo15....esp living in Canada. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martindemon Posted November 14, 2001 Author Share Posted November 14, 2001 Also looking at svs 20-39PC... Looks good but also BIG! I have the place for now but i was trying to save space... Would a 20-39PC go well with Klipsch RF3II? Would the sub kill the Klipsch? ------------------ If it's not broken, don't fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 Martin, Radio St-Hubert in Montreal on Plaza St-Hubert sells Sunfire(subs,pre/pro and amps),they have them in stock! Check them out.They also carry..Paradigm and KLIPSCH!!! Yes they have the whole Klipsch range..and the RF-7's! TV, "When Keele reviewed the servo15 and the MKII for AUDIO...he found the had approx 2x as much clean output(10% thd limit)as the MKII. Unless you must have a tiny cube...I think you'd be much better off looking into the servo15....esp living in Canada." I compared the Servo 15 to the Mark II and Signature,the Servo 15 has maybe twice the output where the Mark II leaves off(at very low freq.). I also pited the Servo-15 against the Signature and the Servo-15 limiters kicked in limiting the output and the Signature was still going stong. The Servo-15 is a very good sub,very good LARGE sub.Its no wonder a very good large sub will have more output then a very good tiny sub. My point is the Sunfire Signature will beat the Servo-15 unless you need sub 25Hz bass.Dont belive me,just get a Servo-15 and a Signature and do the test yourself.The Mark II is still plenty for most. Not all need 150dB at 10Hz at 0.000001THD LOL I may need it,most dont.And BTW Sunfire subs sell very well,are very trouble free and take almost no living space.The output more then most will ever use. Oh by the way...Martin, Radio St-Hubert has Paradigm,Sunfire,Carver,Monitor Audio and plenty more.So you can compare yourself And they carry Klipsch...the whole range,yes sir. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 ears, i think higher spl at sub 25hz is pretty key for great LFE in HT. not as much so for most music. so the obvious question besides space constraints would be why why get a sunfire when you can get an svs 20-39 or 16-46 for a fraction of the cost? u may have to do some tests on the other svs cylinders besides ultra for me. i can't find any to demo ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 >>>I compared the Servo 15 to the Mark II and Signature,the Servo 15 has maybe twice the output where the Mark II leaves off(at very low freq.).<<< It depends on how forgiving you(and the source material) will be to distortion introduced into the audio. Per the KEELE DATA on both units,if you uses a 10% thd limit...the servo15 had the following advnatage over the MKII 20hz/+5dB 25hz/+6dB 31hz/+9dB 40hz/+8dB. So that's 2-3x the clean output capability of the mkII. >>>I also pited the Servo-15 against the Signature and the Servo-15 limiters kicked in limiting the output and the Signature was still going stong.<<< Again, it depends on the distortion tolerated during the test. The SIG has been thought to have the POTENTIAL to add about 3dBs more clean output to the MKII...6dB is the absolute max figure that could be mentioned with a straight face. >>>The Servo-15 is a very good sub,very good LARGE sub.Its no wonder a very good large sub will have more output then a very good tiny sub.<<< I agree. >>>My point is the Sunfire Signature will beat the Servo-15 unless you need sub 25Hz bass.Dont belive me,just get a Servo-15 and a Signature and do the test yourself.The Mark II is still plenty for most.<< I've heard all the subs mentioned,I'd take the servo15 myself. >>>Not all need 150dB at 10Hz at 0.000001THD LOL<<< I agree. But if you could get 2-3x the clean output for the same price...it might be worth considering the larger enclosure imo. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 >>>Also looking at svs 20-39PC... Looks good but also BIG! I have the place for now but i was trying to save space... Would a 20-39PC go well with Klipsch RF3II? Would the sub kill the Klipsch?<<< The 20-39 would work fine with the RF3s. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 yea i've heard klipsch are too loud for some subs but never the other way around svs sound like a great unconstrained match for those efficient klipsch. seems even more so than the new klipsch subs ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 TV the test was limited to 10%THD and even the "EVIL" tiny cube managed within 5dB of the BIG Paradigm at 20Hz this is very very impressive! Even you TV have to agree here. When you let each sub rip,damn all THD then the Sunfire(Mark II) gets very close in output to the largest Paradigm with its 15' driver.Again very impressive. Now I just imagine what Bob Carver would do in a 18" cube,Paradigm and company would run for cover. And BTW I like Paradigm,a Canadian company that makes good speakers and very good subs(Servo-15 and PW2200). Sunfire just strikes me with its diminutive design,all are amazed when they hear a 11" cube with output close to a great 15" subwoofer in a big box. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 quote: Originally posted by TheEAR: Sunfire just strikes me with its diminutive design,all are amazed when they hear a 11" cube with output close to a great 15" subwoofer in a big box. TheEAR(s) Now theears Sounds kinda like another companys claim to fame - BOSE LOL Carver Would never try a bigger sub to match his ego! Has a nice little nitch where peops can pay BIG BUCKS & say wow & it's so tiny (or Interior Decorators) ------------------ go forth & hump the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 "Sounds kinda like another companys claim to fame - BOSE" To compare Bo$e to Sunfire would be the same as comparing Dollar store PMPO speakers with Klipsch speakers. I can pit my Sunfire Signature against your sub and we will hear the true B0$e. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 You dont even know what sub i have. Now I know your predjudiced LOL ------------------ go forth & hump the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 >>>TV the test was limited to 10%THD and even the "EVIL" tiny cube managed within 5dB of the BIG Paradigm at 20Hz this is very very impressive! Even you TV have to agree here.<<< sorry,no. You end up paying approx the same for 1/3 to 1/2 the performance...all because you want to save a few inches of floor space? not my idea of impressive,different strokes.here's one of my first DIYs 30" diameter, 4 long throw 12s, a single 12" port bigger than an entire HSU TN25 enclosure...little cubes really aren't my cup of tea TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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