Full circle and lotsa questions

[Raider]

This is my first post so be gentle.

While in college I had the priviledge of hearing Paul Klipsch speak at the opening of a studio in Nashville ('74 or 75 I think) where Klipschorns were hung upside down in the control room. Paul delighted in demonstrating the efficiency. He asked all the music biz folks to cover their ears when the volume became painful while he increased the volume using a Crown amp. After everyone had done so, he noted the meter connected to the amp registered 1 watt with peaks of 10 watts. I also got a Bulls#*t button, which unfortunately has been lost during the ensuing years; it would have come in handy lately.

I have been researching the speaker market lately, including DIY, and recently heard the new reference line. It had been a long time since I heard Klipsch.

My research since has led me to a few questions which I can't seem to find on the Klipsch site, or otherwise.

First, where are Klipsch speakers made at this point?

What is the main difference between the floor standing and monitor models? Just the size of the bass drivers? Why do the models with three drivers approximately double the cost of the speaker? Is the usual tradeoff of mid range detail vs bass evident as the bass driver gets larger? Is the primary difference between floorstanding models vs monitors just lower octave performance? Do the monitors have more three dimensional imaging than the floor standing as is often the case?

Since I will be using a receiver that is sensitive to impedance below 6 ohms for surrounds or 4 for the center, are the Klipsch a safe load? The specs just show "8 ohm compatible".

How are the gen IV Reference units different from gen III?

Which of the Floor standing units are considered the best value overall? Which bookshelf unit would best serve as a near field studio monitor.

Thanks for your help, and patience. No Bulls#%t of course.

[Jay481985]

The higer ends are made in hope. The synergy and the lower reference are made in china. The heritage still hope.

Main difference in floor standing and monitor is space and depth in bass. The three driver models, I dunno but I assume they are better quality (i.e. better drivers, better horns which the rf83 and 63 have) The three dimensional imaging should be the same as most three dimensional imaging comes from the midrange and high freuqnecy.

klipsch are 8 ohm load that might dip to 6 or 4 ohms but any strong recievers should handle them fine. The ohm dips as it goes deeper in the bass.

Best overall value the rf-82 (street 700-900 dollars)

Gen IV and Gen III are different and hard to describe

[djk]

"Why do the models with three drivers approximately double the cost of the speaker?"

Most of the newer designs are two-way, a two-way has one crossover point, a three-way has two crossover points, so it costs more. The compression driver and horn used for midrange in the Klipschorn costs more than the woofer and tweeter combined.

The cabinets are much more complex than a simple six-sided box. There are 57 boards in the Klipschorn, many of which have compound angles cut on them. A builder can make close to 100 of the Heresy style simple six-sided boxes in a day. I don't think anyone has built more than one pair of the Klipshorns in a day.

[Jay481985]

"Why do the models with three drivers approximately double the cost of the speaker?"

Most of the newer designs are two-way, a two-way has one crossover point, a three-way has two crossover points, so it costs more. The compression driver and horn used for midrange in the Klipschorn costs more than the woofer and tweeter combined.

He meant reference series which with the addition third speakers are still two way designs.

[Daddy Dee]

Welcome to the forum.

Sounds like you are interested in a surround setup.

Klipsch has great options for this or straight out two channel.

[xdetroitx]

I own the Rf-82 and I am completely happy with their performance. My listening room is 12 by 18 and they will make your ears ring with a 100 watt receiver driving them and not have any distortion. I had plans of getting either the Rf-7 or 83 but I spent the money on an engagement ring instead friday. So, that plan is put off for a while. But, I will never own another speaker in my life that is not a klipsch. I love the horn sound.

[Jeff Matthews]

... but I spent the money on an engagement ring instead friday.

Congratulations!

[Jay481985]

I own the Rf-82 and I am completely happy with their performance. My listening room is 12 by 18 and they will make your ears ring with a 100 watt receiver driving them and not have any distortion. I had plans of getting either the Rf-7 or 83 but I spent the money on an engagement ring instead friday. So, that plan is put off for a while. But, I will never own another speaker in my life that is not a klipsch. I love the horn sound.

umm probably not a good place but did you get my reply email?

[colterphoto1]

I own the Rf-82 and I am completely happy with their performance. My listening room is 12 by 18 and they will make your ears ring with a 100 watt receiver driving them and not have any distortion. I had plans of getting either the Rf-7 or 83 but I spent the money on an engagement ring instead friday. So, that plan is put off for a while. But, I will never own another speaker in my life that is not a klipsch. I love the horn sound.

congrats but why not just find some girl you hate, buy her a house and kiss her goodbye instead? LOL

[Colin]

Lots of good questions. First, in your system profile, please let us know what your system is like, the percent of movies vs. music, your age, music tastes, typical listening volume, room size and features, stereo budget, etc. That why the informed posters here can give you meaningful, useful solid advice. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

First, where are Klipsch speakers made at this point?

Monitor speakers are not bookshelf speakers. True monitor speakers are used up close (near field) in recording studios and have amps inside them they are actively powered. Compnaies selling their bookshelf speakers as monitors are using marketing hype to imply that their speakers are good enough for the studio.

The better bass of floor standing helps with mid-range accuracy and imaging too.

Small Loudspeaker Woes

Keep in mind that at this end of the audio spectrum; many low cost bookshelf loudspeakers suffer from more faults than strengths. They often struggle to reproduce the music. Instruments are "jambled" together like Grandma's stew - all sorts of things thrown in there. Cabinets and drivers are lightweight: thin and flimsy. Separation is poor. Dynamics are congested. Bass dies on the vine, parched from lack of power and control. Treble just hisses at you oh gad, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Nothing that captures the joyous essence of music; only something that imitates the sound.

Any good bookshelf loudspeaker needs to be away from the front and sidewalls, and positioned at ear level for best listening affects. Solid, heavy stands are very strongly recommended for tweaking audiophiles,

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0402/axiommillennia.htm

Bigger is better with big ole horns.[H]

[Jay481985]

your age

trying to pick up a hot date []

but really what does age have to do with anything?

[Raider]

Thanks for the responses.

I plan to assemble a 7.1 HT system that will capture the theatre experience. The room will receive acoutic treatment after installation, and problems are identified. The system will be used equally for music for myself and the family. A Yamaha RX-V659 at about 110w/channel will power the system. Room is 15x17.

Where are the Reference series made?

I have considered monitors from several popular mid-high end manufacturers. I take it from the comments that Klipsch would not be recommended for near filed monitor use? I would be using these in my studio/office for general listening, auditioning downloads, and for Garage Band use on my Mac as a learning tool for me and the kids. I always found accuracy paramount for such use; Ironically the studio monitor camp is divided between using speakers with known coloration or accuracy. Since I first heard Klipshorns in a studio demonstrated by Paul Klipsch, I'm surprised to see no recommendations from the current product line.

The generalities in the literature have made it difficult to compare and discern between models, so I hoped to receive feedback from those experienced with the different models. Most every manufacturer seems to have models witin their line where a certain synergy takes place and some models emerge as being the best value. Are there any in the Reference line where this is true?

Lastly, since I've been away from Klipsch for a while, how faithfully is Klipsch carrying on Paul's tradition?

Fundamentally at this point I'm trying to decide whether my money would be better spent on Klipsch, or on proven DIY designs using premium drivers. Anyone with experience of opinions welcome.

Thanks

[Raider]

Which reference models are made in Hope? (like to keep the home folks working if I can).

To me, monitors on a stand take up the same footprint as a floorstanding models, and often the cost of the stands and monitors approach the floor-standing cost. So it seems to be a tradeoff between lower bass and maybe slightly lower cost.

I haven't had a chance to compare the models to each other, since I was comparing with B&W before. Frankly, especially for HT and live music, the efficiency of the References was pretty compelling, understanding the implications. I've found headroom, however you can get it, is an always a good thing in the audio experience.

I had read on an HT forum that the impedance of the RF83 dipped pretty low at times; I wanted to verify that this isn't so, since there is so much disinformation out there.

Do you feel the midrange is as good on the 8-inch models as with the 6.5 aqnd 5" models? Usually there is a tradeoff, unless there is very careful engineering.

More so than sonic signature, (you either love it or you don't, and I did) I was curious as to the physical differences between gen 3 and 4 (enclosure, crossover, driver changes etc.)

Thanks for your response!

[Jay481985]

I believe only the wood versions speakers are made in hope (meaning real wood veneer and not vinyl) which means that rf-63 and rf83

The RF-7 dipped down to 2.8 ohns while the rf-83 doesn't dip as low though I am not sure on exact numbers

[Raider]

Roger that.

Do you know if the RF63 and RF83 are configured using the technology from line arrays where each successive driver from the tweeter produces less and less of the midrange spectrum to minimize comb filtering effect? From the product literature, the center channels apparently use this approach given the references "Klipsch Tapered Array technology operates all of the woofers at the lowest frequencies". If so the resulting crossover is considerably more complex and would account for part of the significantly higher cost of these models, along with the real wood veneers. Does te RF83 and 63 use a similar technology?

Thanks

[Jay481985]

From what I can hear no.... But again the cones are really close together and I believe comb filtering is when speakers are horizontal and does not effect when they are vertical for some reason.

[Duke Spinner]

HuH ...???

[DrWho]

I am fairly certain the RF63 and 83 are not using that technology.

They don't really need to because any beaming is happening near

ear-level and is only in the vertical direction. It could be argued

that this helps match the 90x60 polar of the tweeter as well. The

reason the tapered-array is used for the center channels is to maximize

the off-axis response. A horizontally arrayed speaker will beam in the

horizontal direction which is detrimental to the wide horizontal

dispersion required by center channels.

As far as the best performer in the category...

In the gen III lineup the RF-7 was great, but very evidently lacking in

the midrange despite the advanced cerametalic cones (10" drivers just

can't cover 30Hz - 2kHz). For this reason I and a select few other

individuals always prefferd the RF-3II and -35, but we were always in

the minority in light of the RF-7's awesome punchy bass. With the new

gen IV lineup Klipsch made a point to improve the mid-range on the

grand-daddy, which is why you see three 8" drivers instead of two 10"

drivers (it ends up being about the same surface area too). They

maintained the same punchy low-end while cleaning up the midrange a bit.

Of the newer reference series, the only one I've heard is the RF-83's

with $40k of electronics upstream. The midrange has been much improved

from what I can remember of the old reference, and the top-end is much

much cleaner and more airy. The midrange isn't quite the same as the

3-way heritage speakers, but it is extremely well balanced and still

has that original Klipsch sound.

Since PWK's passing, Klipsch had made it a point to continue in the PWK

philosophy. Granted with advancements in research and technology they

aren't doing everything the way PWK would have done it 20 years ago. I

think the best analogy is they are stepping on his shoulders and

scanning the horizon. Klipsch needs to remain realistic and cater to an

ever changing market.

I've always preferred floor-standing speakers over the

book-shelves...even when both are set to small and a subwoofer is used.

The floor-standers simply present a much larger image and are more

involving to listen to. And as you noted, when stands are implemented

you're looking at nearly the same cost and footprint.

I'm not sure if the entire Reference line is made in Hope, but I know

the 83's are. We got to see them go down the assembly line at the last

pilgrimage. Speaking of which, if you're a Klipsch fan you should hang

around these parts and take part in the next pilgrimage. Every year I

go to these functions I become more and more impressed with PWK.

If PWK or any of the engineers were around they would tell you to go out and do some auditioning and let your ears decide.

Good luck on your future purchase and welcome to the forum.

[Jay481985]

I am fairly certain the RF63 and 83 are not using that technology.

They don't really need to because any beaming is happening near

ear-level and is only in the vertical direction. It could be argued

that this helps match the 90x60 polar of the tweeter as well. The

reason the tapered-array is used for the center channels is to maximize

the off-axis response. A horizontally arrayed speaker will beam in the

horizontal direction which is detrimental to the wide horizontal

dispersion required by center channels.

Yeah, thats what I meant before.

As far as the best performer in the category...

In the gen III lineup the RF-7 was great, but very evidently lacking in

the midrange despite the advanced cerametalic cones (10" drivers just

can't cover 30Hz - 2kHz). For this reason I and a select few other

individuals always prefferd the RF-3II and -35, but we were always in

the minority in light of the RF-7's awesome punchy bass. With the new

gen IV lineup Klipsch made a point to improve the mid-range on the

grand-daddy, which is why you see three 8" drivers instead of two 10"

drivers (it ends up being about the same surface area too). They

maintained the same punchy low-end while cleaning up the midrange a bit.

Remember DrWho, even though the3 8 don't get the same surface area as two 10's we found out using just the external dimensions (neglecting bracing and probably same wood width) that the rf-83 are bigger and actually have more cone surface area per cubic foot volume enclosure.

Of the newer reference series, the only one I've heard is the RF-83's

with $40k of electronics upstream. The midrange has been much improved

from what I can remember of the old reference, and the top-end is much

much cleaner and more airy. The midrange isn't quite the same as the

3-way heritage speakers, but it is extremely well balanced and still

has that original Klipsch sound.

Since PWK's passing, Klipsch had made it a point to continue in the PWK

philosophy. Granted with advancements in research and technology they

aren't doing everything the way PWK would have done it 20 years ago. I

think the best analogy is they are stepping on his shoulders and

scanning the horizon. Klipsch needs to remain realistic and cater to an

ever changing market.

I've always preferred floor-standing speakers over the

book-shelves...even when both are set to small and a subwoofer is used.

The floor-standers simply present a much larger image and are more

involving to listen to. And as you noted, when stands are implemented

you're looking at nearly the same cost and footprint.

I'm not sure if the entire Reference line is made in Hope, but I know

the 83's are. We got to see them go down the assembly line at the last

pilgrimage. Speaking of which, if you're a Klipsch fan you should hang

around these parts and take part in the next pilgrimage. Every year I

go to these functions I become more and more impressed with PWK.

If PWK or any of the engineers were around they would tell you to go out and do some auditioning and let your ears decide.

Good luck on your future purchase and welcome to the forum.

[DrWho]

RF-7:

a) external volume = 4.8 cubic feet

cone surface area= 50pi

a / b = 0.031 cubic feet per square inch of driver

RF-83:

a) external volume = 5.4 cubic feet

cone surface area = 48pi

a / b = 0.038 cubic feet per square inch of driver

(aka, less cone surface area per cubic foot - you want the surface area per volume ratio to be as low as possible - which is the same thing as the volume per surface area being as big as possible)

Assuming the driver radiating areas and the volumes are the same (fair assumption); The 83 has 3 motors versus the 2 motors of the 7, which results in better cone control. The net effect being a cleaner midrange without sacrificing low frequency extension. Vertical polars will be about the same, but the horizontal polars greatly improve.