Ki Choi Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 Has anyone in the group tried a TACT or Lyngdorf type of room correction system in their Khorn setup? Thanks, Ki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zekey Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 No, but FWIW, I use a TacT RCS 2.2XP room correction preamp and S 2150 digital power amp with RF-7's and a sub. I consider it a "killer" combination and one of hifi's best-kept secrets. Most TacT users wouldn't consider Klipsch and vice-versa, so I think I'm just lucky to have stumbled on this very synergistic combo. I won't change until I can afford Avantgardes, and then only if a careful listen convinces me it's worth the $$ involved in that upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Man, those guys have some really trippy stuff going on over there - bummer it's so bloody expensive. http://www.tactlab.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 This sounds like something that I would invent. Very interesting. If the performance is anything like the experiment I did in 1969 it should be a winner. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Just curious.... It seems like these RCS devices adjust to single listening sweet spot position. If so does the system sound better or worse everywhere else? One of the things I appreciate about the Khorn is that the reproduction sounds great everywhere. When in a different room it sounds as though there's a concert going on in the music room. Other systems sound beamy. They're great sitting in just the right place but leave that and they go flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 A parametric (not graphic) EQ can sometimes help alot; Old SAE's were pretty good in their time. I'm looking into this unit below for my Christmas present.... I'm trying to get with a dealer to get a "loaner" to test. Kosmos® V2 Generator-Processor MSRP: $299.99 Second generation sub harmonic and stereo enhancement system drastically improves the listening experience in any space-with any sound system. Replace lost atmosphere and stereo separation as well as that kick in the gut bass that gets lost in the normal system chain. Features Second generation sub bass generator/audio processor Controls for sub harmonics, low frequency, high frequency, output level and sub output level Damping, crossover disable, cut subs from main switches Mono sum switch Ins/Outs XLR & TRS Sub out TRS balanced 1RU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki Choi Posted November 27, 2006 Author Share Posted November 27, 2006 The thought came to me reading about the RCS device driving two corner subs with mid/high drivers out in the room being the recommended setup. The Khorn bass bin had to be the one of the best best performer living in the corners but I had no control over the room acoustics and the time variables between the bass driver and the rest of the speaker systems. It would be ideal if I can keep the Khorn bass bins in the corners and place the best mid/high combo such as Trachorn 400/K55V+CP25s with the AA crossovers positioned for the best imaging possible and let the RCS device manage the delays, phase shifts, and all the other anomallities associated with disjointed speaker drivers. Although I don't own a TACT device to confirm but the software measures different parts of the room responses as well as the sweet spot to come up with the numerous curves to choose from. I believe whenever one manipulates the source, there are losses and unwanted gains to the signal in comnparison to the simpler setup with best transparency possible. Thus, I was hesitant to add it to my system but I guess I won't know for certain, until I give it a try in my own room. Ki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Love the auto EQ of the Behringer 2496 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Hmmm... People believe what they want to believe. "Equal loudness curves" huh? Bottom line. You cannot EQ non-minimum phase signals. EQ does not correct room anomalies. You can only EQ direct signals. Also, measuring the frequency response of a room at a particular point, inverting the phase and re-applying the signal does NOT correct for non-minimum phase based anomolies appearing in the frequency domain caused by superposition! You cannot correct for comb filtering with an EQ! And I don't care HOW good the EQ is! FIR filters are being employed in a very limited fashion in DSP equalizing minimum phase regions of the frequency response. Beyond that, EQ CANNOT be used to correct for time based superposition of direct and reflected signals. But don't argue with me, debate Dick Heyser and Don Davis - the originator of the 1/3 octave EQ! Let's see, we can choose to do audio via physics, or we can do it via marketing. One is easier to do - and as you don't have to actually justify it via rigoraous analysis, its easier to sell too! Oh, BTW, I have some directional wire for sale I can let you have for an excellent price! And it makes bi-wired speakers just sing!! But I will admit, that it provides for a great marketing gimmick. And it happens to be the hot ticket being pushed right now! Many companies need some strategic advantage to differentiate their product and their marketing departments have hit on this gimmick! After all, thats where the money is! Just look at the interconnect niche! And unfortunately this I precisely the basis for a few firms that many like to trash so easily without even understanding why! I fear that here we are witnesing the opposite effect! We are here embracing FM (as I can't call it legitimate technology) without understanding why as well! Sarcasm? Not me! I read it in a marketing brochure! It must be true! [] Sorry folks, I wish it were true.... I wish I could keep a straight face and charge for recharging crystals too! And I will even keep them under a pyramid for an extra day or two! And I even have the degrees to add legitimacy! It must be true! I hate to be the resident curmudgeon, but hey, someone has to do it! [] [] Have fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Ah! the resident curmudgeon! Love curmudgeons..... Joking aside, help us a bit with the education process:[8-|] "Equal loudness curves" huh? Bottom line. You cannot EQ non_minimum phase signals. EQ does not correct room anomalies. You can only EQ direct signals. Also, measuring the frequency response of a room at a particular point, inverting the phase and re_applying the signal does NOT correct for non_minimum phase based anomolies appearing in the frequency domain caused by superposition! You cannot correct for comb filtering with an EQ! And I don't care HOW good the EQ is! Superposition being the overlaying of the phase inverted signal? FIR filters are being employed in a very limited fashion in DSP equalizing minimum phase regions of the frequency response. Beyond that, EQ CANNOT be used to correct for time based superposition of direct and reflected signals. Can you explain a little bit about FIR & DSP. But don't argue with me, debate Dick Heyser and Don Davis _ the originator of the 1/3 octave EQ! No argument from me; help again,... Of what use, even if minimal, would an EQ be to us? If any, what kind? This is assuming we cannot afford to remodel or "treat" the room at this point? BTW, I have some directional wire for sale I can let you have for an excellent price! And it makes bi_wired speakers just sing!! Nah, thanks though! I just got some.......[] Sorry folks, I wish it were true.... I wish I could keep a straight face and charge for recharging crystals too! And I will even keep them under a pyramid for an extra day or two! And I even have the degrees to add legitimacy! It must be true! Extra for the pyramid? No way!...........[:^)] I hate to be the resident curmudgeon, but hey, someone has to do it! At least we have a curmudgeon of Dickensian proportions to beat us about the head and shoulders on occasion.... [] Have fun... That, I can assure you, we are doing (moving speakers, rugs, etc., around) and with all due attention and speed to re-connecting things properly (in phase...)[<)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki Choi Posted November 27, 2006 Author Share Posted November 27, 2006 I work for a company that supplies probes and instruments to acquire eddy current signals beyond audiable frequency range for non-distructive inspection of nulcear steam generator tubes using only the best physics. Fortunately, we haven't need to resort to the directional pure gold wires with high tech geometric braiding yet. ;-) But then again, may be I am discounting the need to use the best technology to protect all of us from the next nuclear accident due to neclear steam generator tube leaks... On the other hand, the Room Correction System is more than the typical marketing hype I believe. There are many info on the Net but try this one as a starter. http://www.roomcorrection.com/ I think we need curmudgeons with reality check here and elsewhere. I am lucky and can depend on my teenage daughter to tell me the truth... Ki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Yikes, if that roomcorrection site doesn't read like an ad, I dunno what does. I agree with most of their "physics", even impressed by them measuring the impulse responses, but they fail to explain how their technology works. I already know PEQ doesn't work. [6] Here's a really good source on room acoustics... [] http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/796165.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 My 11th grade Physics teacher was a really cool guy from Ecuador that made me tapes of Gerry Mulligan and Pauls Desmond and Chambers all the time after he heard me try to play jazz at a school assembly the year before. He was in his 60's, drove an RX-7, was rich from publishing Chemistry textbooks in Latin America, and had adopted my Granny's Siamese cat that was destroying her house. I'll never forget his first lesson of the course. I can still hear him with his accent, "Mr. Clarke, there is no such thing as a free lunch!!" His lesson was meant to apply to a broad concept (a freeish Klipsch bumper sticker to the first to guess what that concept is), but it has stuck with me for years and applies to room acoustics problems among many other things in life. If the room's wrong, you have to fix the room. Or compensate the system to one position, then don't move when you listen. At all. JBL's pushing this pretty big time with their LSR monitors. I'm sure it can help, but even Harman wouldn't claim it cures all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Superposition being the overlaying of the phase inverted signal? This is how it was explained to me... So you've got the direct sound of a speaker and the reflected sound. You CAN EQ the direct sound. However, all of the dips and peaks you see as a result of the reflected sound CANNOT. For a very simple analogy, you have a speaker sitting 3 feet from the side wall playing a 90Hz tone. The sound eminates from the speaker in all directions causing a reflection off the side wall to arrive at the listening position - about 6ms late and 180 degrees out of phase (since the wavelength of 90Hz is 12 feet). You end up with a dip in the measured frequency response. Looking at the measurement, it would seem logical to add 6dB of boost at 90Hz to get rid of this dip. However, by increasing the direct sound you are also increasing the reflected sound by the same amount...no matter how much boost you apply, you won't get rid of the dip (in this overly simple analogy anyway). But you also need to take into account that the dip is only going to happen during the steady state; not during the first 6ms, nor the last 6ms. By adjusting for the steady state response, you are completely ignoring the transient response - and we all know how important transients are in music. By adding 6dB of boost, you're essentially boosting the first and last 6ms by 6dB while doing nothing to the sound inbetween (except adding distortion) No argument from me; help again,... Of what use, even if minimal, would an EQ be to us? If any, what kind? This is assuming we cannot afford to remodel or "treat" the room at this point? EQ is best left for tailoring the direct response of the speaker - as would be measured in an anechoic chamber. mas will probably hate me for saying this, perhaps rightfully so considering the huge amount of misinformation out there, but some EQ can be used to improve the sound in a room where the acoustics can't be treated. Is it ideal? Heck no. But it's certainly something that can be employed. The annoying thing about it is that you'll find yourself wanting to tweak things slightly for every CD. What you will also find is that rarely will good sounding EQ's measure well. To think of it another way, you're basically tailoring the direct sound of the recording to excite your room in a less annoying way. But to stress the point - though EQ might subjectively improve the sound quality, you're going to realize much much much much larger improvements by properly treating the room. Think of EQ as just changing the color of car, whereas proper treatment is moving to a better car altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Mike, Thanks, good comparisons You have a PM Later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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