Klipschorns vs Summits and Amplifier Matching

[jacksonbart]

Les Stewart is also suffering from a bad case of OCD.

[Chris Robinson]

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I heard the top of the line <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Logans, but not in comparison with other speakers:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0902/deprecating.htm

yes, nice to read on a lazy Friday morning, when the forum is usually so dead

Colin, really enjoyed your write-up. I would agree that "less is more", and what can be accomplished with a small tube amp and ultra-efficient horns.

Edwin, I'm very excited for your new acquisition. They are visually stunning. I recall when I heard my first Maggies back in the late 70's. They blew me away. A few minutes later (literally), I heard my first pair of Klipschorns. And I was blown away again.

Strangely, or interestingly, the only speaker I ever lusted for thereafter was the Klipschorn. I always remembered the presence of the electrostatic, but I was thrilled to the core by the natural presence of the Klipschorn. That it is 55+ year old design and can be happily fed by a 3W SET [H]

[edwinr]

I agree, Colin's writeup was excellent. What I can't emphasis too much, is how competitive the Klipschorn is to more recent designs. I really did not expect the Klipschorn to sound that good. In fact that was the first time I had heard an AK4 model. My previous Klipschorns were AK2's.

In fact I was even more interested at the reaction of the two sales people who were helping me. At first they kind of, but not quite, ridiculed the matchup with the Summits. Once we had both speakers setup, I started listening, and so did the two sales staff. I could tell from their faces and comments that they didn't quite know what to say. They were expecting this 60 year old design to be blown out of the water. It didn't happen.

The Klipschorns were auditioned with an Audio Research tube integrated (a VS55i I think it was...) and my Summits were auditioned with an Audio Research LS25 mkII preamp and a Classe CA2200 (similar to the one I own which is a Classe Model Twenty Five).

Regarding the concept of horns vs other designs. I just wonder if PWK really cared. Maybe he choose horns because they were the only transducer that could achieve what he wanted with the technology available at the time.

I wonder if PWK had access to modern hybrid electrostatic technology, whether we might have seen something different.

[pinipig523]

Congrats on the Summits!

- Joey, another Summit owner, but still a Klipsch afficionado.

[edwinr]

Thanks. You're another Summit owner? I've been posting a bit on the Martin Logan Forum (but you know that of course... []). It's surprising (or maybe not surprising) how many Klipsch fans are ML fans as well. A few still own their Klipsch speakers as well as ML's.

[oldbuckster]

Nice write up, and good call on your purchase............Enjoy.....seem to take up less room than Khorns, and aren't corner placed..........Best Wishes.......Let us know how they break in.........

[quadklipsh]

very nice account edwin,

the post has died , but i enjoyed evry bit of it.

ofcourse i would like to know what amps you had used and what was the usual SPL at which you compared the two.

to me , the summits arent as mammothly as the khorns , and similarly they wouldnt have even sounded as big too, perhaps.

the brief experience i had with the summits was with krell 150 watt /ch stereo integrated amplifier and a meridian cd player . and the sound was not very technically correct . but thats just my own observation. i wasnt impressed with the bass either .

i have yet to experience any khorns

[edwinr]

Thanks, quadklipsch.

I eventually sold the Summits to pay for medical treatment. I miss them a lot. I ended up running them with an Audio Research LS25 mk2 pre and a Pass Labs X150 power amp. I never used these amplifiers with my Klipschorns. Now the newer breed of ML's can be driven quite nicely with a good quality tube amp. Perhaps the new Audio Research VSi60. Just recently, I auditioned the Spire and the slightly smaller Ethos. They sounded very nice, with the Spire winning by a nose. Both speakers feature powered bass A good combination that drove the Summits very well.; a 10 inch driver in the case of the Spire, and an 8 inch driver with passive woofer in the Ethos. The new Summit X is out of my price range so I didn't listen.

When comparing the Klipschorn and the Summit, I was listening loud! I was recording 105 dB peaks 'C' weighted on my digital spl meter. Both speakers can drive a very large room to concert levels. Ultimately I guess the K'horns would go louder, but I reckon my ears would bleed before I approached the limits of either speaker. Looking back at what I wrote before, there was not a lot between the two. I now think the Summit resolved more low level detail with better imaging, but the K'horn had a better soundstage. It was really hard to get the bass right with the Summits. After over 3 years of tweaking, it was something unresolved. The K'horn was much easier to get right.

Maybe my Klipschorns would have benefitted from better amplification than I used. There's a tendency to stick just any old amp on them because any old amp will drive them! This is where many, including myself, make a mistake. The Klipschorns deserve the best amp you can afford - not necessarily the most powerful one. The best amp I used with the K'horn was an Audio Note Soro SE. The worst was an old Pioneer s/s thing which I still own. Many people reckon SET amplifiers sound the best with Klipschorns. Maybe they're right. A lot of more powerful amplifiers aren't really suited to driving really supersensitive speakers at normal listening levels. The first few watts out of these amplifiers sound awful, but when driving 'normal' speakers, these 'awful' watts aren't an issue.

You need to experience Klipschorns. When you do, you will develop an irresistible urge to buy a pair. You have been warned!

P.S. I still own some Klipsch speakers. I bought a brand new pair of Belles a few years ago which I kept boxed. When I sold the Summits, I unboxed them and I have been enjoying them ever since.

P.P.S. I've been toying with the idea of building a Bottlehead Stereomour SET amp. It punches out a whopping 3.5 watts per channel! I wonder what my Belles will think of that...

[edwinr]

Sorry the above post is hard to read. I'm posting with my macbook pro. There seems to be some issues with Apple computers and this website.

(Edit: I jumped on a windows computer to fix the above posting issues...)

[quadklipsh]

EDWINr,

first thing first ,1) what medical issues ripped you off those speakers ?

2) what can you tell me about your experience with tube amps vs SS,

as i think the bass has some issue , inherently with tube amps.

dont get me wrong , i have a very small headfone tube amp, that im trying to play with, these days . and though it gives clarity and power to my headfones (fostex RP T-20) , the bass maybe something less existant when compared to more muffled and mellower sound coming from the source (creative audigy2, sound card ) .

though i like the way tube amp sounds , is it still the best i can have when it comes to audio ?

[quadklipsh]

O BLIMY !!!!

this isnt the right post , its a klipschorn /summit thread .

im sorry .

[edwinr]

EDWINr,

first thing first ,1) what medical issues ripped you off those speakers ?

2) what can you tell me about your experience with tube amps vs SS,

as i think the bass has some issue , inherently with tube amps.

dont get me wrong , i have a very small headfone tube amp, that im trying to play with, these days . and though it gives clarity and power to my headfones (fostex RP T-20) , the bass maybe something less existant when compared to more muffled and mellower sound coming from the source (creative audigy2, sound card ) .

though i like the way tube amp sounds , is it still the best i can have when it comes to audio ?

1. Badly broken shoulder plus torn muscles and ligaments. I did it at work but the insurance wouldn't pay the whole cost. I was six months off work.

2. You can't judge an s/s or tube amplifier in isolation. Many will say that tubes amplifiers lack some bass compared to s/s - but what speakers are they being asked to drive? S/s can sound awfully harsh when matched with highly sensitive horns. Low powered SET amplifiers can sound laughable if you ask them to drive something like a pair of massive ATC studio monitors. I have been into horns for 'only' 8 years. I am still learning. But one thing I have learnt, is that horn speakers are much more influenced by what amplifier you drive them with than other speaker designs. If your horn sounds harsh, shrill, unlistenable, then there is something wrong with your amplification or source - not the speaker.

The Martin Logan Summits, like other electrostatics, are also sensitive to amplifiers. The Summits could sound very ordinary when driven by average electronics (Sadly, average doesn't necessarily mean inexpensive). Funny enough, some of the best sound I got from the Summits was from my little Atoll IN50 intergrated amplifier @ 50 watts per channel. The little Atoll shamed my then Mark Levinson amplifier for listenability. Obviously the big ML was designed to drive something more demanding than the Summits (That's why I sold it for the Pass Labs X150).

I am now thinking SET amplification... The Belles are okay. I will be keeping those. Mint Belles will be worth a lot of money in the not too distant future. They are an absolute bargain now. Klipschorns are also back in the mix if I don't buy another set of panels. But SET amplification intrigues me. The first few watts are SO important. Horns for general listening in smaller to medium sized rooms, will ask the amplifier to respond only a little above their idle. Many modern amplifiers have been designed to produce clean power well above where any decent Klipsch horn speaker will need to go. So where does that leave us? I'll tell you!!! Harsh, shrill distorted sound similar to what you might hear when starting up a chainsaw!

I need to rethink how I drive my Belles. I currently use a CEC Tube 53 integrated amp. It does about 12 to 14 clean watts a side. It drives my Belles to ear bleeding levels. But I can tell it lacks some refinement at lower levels in my smallish room (20 foot by 24 foot). If I had a larger room like the long lost but sorely missed Parrot has, then something like the NOSValves VRD tube monoblocs would be the way to go.

[edwinr]

Check out this new design from Bottlehead.com. It's an integrated tube SET amplifier using 2A3 tubes. It's offered as a kit for around $749. Here's a pic...

[pauln]

If you build one of the Bottlehead amps, be sure you twist the hell out
of all the paired wires, both signal and heater supplies, to knock down
the hum.

To the degree that the Belle is very similar to the La Scala, you should definitley try SET power, the 2A3 tube is plenty with a properly matched preamp and just sounds heavenly, profound, dimensional, and real.

Nice to see this old thread get revived...

[CT vintage]

Good post. I agree with you about Klipschorn owners also enjoying the ML sound. I really like my ML Vantatges. They're visually stunning and sounded better than the khorn when I was in the sweet spot. The problem was that the sweet spot for the Vantages was very small. They are too dependent of directionality. I had to basically be sitting dead center and fairly close or the MLs sounded completely lackluster... laughable even. Imagine trying to show off my fancy new speakers to friends/family and coralling them all into a small cluster on the couch directly in the tiny sweet spot. [] How silly did they look... but it sure sounded nice!

Sometimes, I like to crank up the khorns and go downstairs and then outside to listen. I know that sounds strange but picture standing in line at a nightclub and how you hear and feel the music from inside. That's what I want to hear when I am cranking my system up. Doing that with the MLs resulted in almost no detail and not enough dBs to make even half of the "nightclub impact" as the pair of khorns.

I found the bass of the vantages to blow away the khorns in every way. Actually, I find the khorns lack of bass to be its one major downfall. It has the bass of an Altec A-7 or a panasonic "thruster". [:S] My cornwalls bass would best the vantages ...as I remember.

I've never heard the summits so I can't comment on them.

I ended up selling the one pair of speakers. Guess which ones I kept? Scroll to the video at the bottom of the post to find out.

My system is ever-changing. Here is the current system with an onkyo tx-nr1000 and VPI TT. Crank it up!

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=3448cac&s=7

[edwinr]

Great post CT vintage. Electrostatics are not for everyone, but many horn fans will probably like panels as well. I tried Vantages at home a few years ago. The bass output was amazing. But the soundstage was minimal if you weren't sitting in the sweet spot. The Summits were better, but not by a whole lot, and were beaten by the Klipschorn. I never compared my Belles directly with the Summits, but I reckon the Belles offer a far wider soundstage. I have a couple of discs featuring Chopin's nocturnes and I seem to remember the Summits reproducing some background studio sound better than the Belles - although the actual piano reproduction was very similar to what I reckon my Belles can manage.

I like your video. I won't spoil what you did for others who might read this thread, but I can understand why you choose as you did. []

[edwinr]

If you build one of the Bottlehead amps, be sure you twist the hell out of all the paired wires, both signal and heater supplies, to knock down the hum.

To the degree that the Belle is very similar to the La Scala, you should definitley try SET power, the 2A3 tube is plenty with a properly matched preamp and just sounds heavenly, profound, dimensional, and real.

Nice to see this old thread get revived...

Thanks pauln.

I suspect Bottlhead amps, because of their circuit topology, are prone to hum and other noise. I guess there are things you forgive in something you build yourself. It's a worry though when you have noise and reliability problems with 'hi-end' amplifiers that you paid full retail for. I have had these problems and they have left me very suspicious of certain manufacturer's products. The Bottlehead Forum is very good and can help those like me who have very little technical training. I can solder and I can just barely make work my way through a circuit diagram. But that's it!

I need to do something that's not too expensive but offers genuine sound improvement. As I indicated the previous paragraph, I am sick of paying full retail and then losing big $$$ again when I realise that the 'hi-end' component that I bought in good faith is not as good as it was made out to be by the manufacturer.

[pauln]

If you can solder and follow a schematic you're an excellent candidate for building your own.

As you might imagine, in a well designed and manufactured finished product, virtually every aspect, be it the position of components and wires or placement of controls; everything has been done with respect to a collection of principles - low noise, low hum, etc. All that stems from the technical engineering side and experience. Some manufacturers have more of that than others...

When fashioning a product from a kit there is the chance that many of the specific techniques used by the industry pros will be misunderstood, poorly implemented, or just overlooked. Some of these are quite simple, but may not be intuitively obvious to the general builder. It is very important to spend some time on the kit / DIY forums to learn as much as possible about what techniques have the most influence on success.

[sunnysal]

Edwin, gratz on your new acquisition. I have found that klipsch owners often have an affinity for panel speakers, they share a lot of family value in the sound department. I myself had maggies and certainly would consider buying top of the line maggies to compete with the Klipschorns. however, I am so happy with the sound of music through my current system that a magnepan purchase would only follow a lottery win. warm regards, Tony

[Colin]

I heard Summits and recently heard Saunders Sound Systems at

AXPONA. (See Deprecating the Gods article at EnjoyTheMusic.com.) I recently

attended AXPONA again, the largest high-end audio show on the East Coast. I briefly

interviewed about 50 different exhibitors about their sound systems for

StereoList.com. The videos are linked to StereoList.com and the Audio Tube Amp,

Big Ole Horns, and The Tweaking Audiophile fan pages at Facebook.

The Khorn bass measures deep and flat – flatter than

Cornwalls or probably Martine Logans. A lot of speakers intentionally bump up

in the upper bass and treble. B&W 800 Diamonds do. Yet the Saunders

electrostatics were wonderful sounding and only $16K!