Klipschorns vs Summits and Amplifier Matching

[edwinr]

Well, the big fight. The top two heavy weight contenders from two highly regarded camps.

I've had lots of fun during the last few months auditioning both speakers. Price wise they are both fairly similar. In Australia the Summits are a little more expensive, but there's not much in it if you twist the dealer's arm. Size wise the Klipschorn is heavier and larger, but when you seal them into a corner, they don't intrude into the room that much. The Summit on the other hand is similar in height, weighs less and has a smaller footprint, but requires positioning well out into the room. The Klipschorn definitely wins the WAF here.

Connecting the Klipschorn is a piece of cake. Just hook up some spare twin flex to the speaker and the amplifier, taking care with the polarity, push them into a corner and away you go. The Summit requires much more effort. First you need to make sure you have a available power point close by. Why? Because the Summit features two 200 watt digital amplifiers per speaker, each driving a 10 inch subwoofer. Plus the electrostatic panels need to be powered up to work. Also I've found that the Summits are a bit fussy with the speaker cables. Cheap twin flex doesn't cut it. I don't know why this is the case. The winner here? The Klipschorn of course

Now some have argued that the 103 db sensitive AK4 Klipschorn only needs a few watts to produce music. This may be the case, but in any event, most people would agree that any amplifier of reasonable quality can make the Klipschorn sing. The Summit on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. While the Summit's official electrical sensitivity is quoted around 90-ish db for 1 watt input, the reality is that they are a rather difficult load. The impedance can drop to around 1 ohm at certain frequencies. Many amplifiers don't like that. But both the Klipschorn and the Summit are particular about the source. Careful selection of the source can reap benefits in your listening pleasure. I have to say the Klipschorn wins out here as well.

Now the most important criteria for most of us are not looks, but the sound. Looks do come into it, but we all would prefer to have both. And with the Klipschorn and the Summit you CAN have both. In isolation, each speaker looks sensational in a room. Also, in isolation, each speaker sounds fantastic in a room. Before we choose a winner here. Lets talk about the individual sound qualities.

The Klipschorn was, and still is, a benchmark for absolute sound quality. The tweaks over the years have been thoughtful and well considered by Klipsch engineers. They have preserved one of the world's greatest loudspeaker designs for posterity. There are only a few (very expensive) loudspeakers that can match the Klipschorn for absolute sound quality and even fewer that can beat it. The Klipschorn doesn't really sound like a typical horn speaker. The tonal quality is rich and accessible. I love it.

Most Klipschorn owners will listen briefly to another speaker, shake their head in pity for the other brand's owner, and then walk away in disgust. It's amazing however, how a Klipschorn lover can relate to the sound quality of Martin Logan’s and Maggies. Maybe it's the very open sound quality and room filling sound that attracts. I'm not sure why this is so. All I know is that I find the sound of panel speakers appealing. When I first heard the Summits, I was astounded. Here was a speaker that I could live with. It had all the qualities I liked in a speaker and it was capable of going very loud.

So I decided I needed to directly compare both the Klipschorn and the Summit for sound quality. The speakers were in different rooms of course so I couldn't directly compare them. But I was able to go from room to room and listen at will. Firstly I auditioned the Klipschorn. Using the same disc being Rickie Lee Jone's debut album (not because I really like it, but I am familiar with it and it's a reasonable recording), I thought the Klipschorn offered a HUGE soundstage. The sweet spot was fairly narrow, but the voice was nicely centred. I thought the bass was well extended and very tight. I thought the sound was addictive and punchy, lacking in coloration or any harshness. This is a sound I am very familiar with.

Now the Summit had a vastly different tonality on first listening. It was a shock really. I asked myself "where has the music gone?" Well it was there, but not so 'in your face'. I always thought the Klipschorn were very neutral. But compared to the Martin Logan’s, the Klipschorn IS a little colored. But not excessively so you Klipschorn owners can calm down a little and delay sending me hate email... yet. The Martin Logan's bass isn't as full as the Klipschorn, despite the 400 odd watts of digital amplification with two 10 inch subwoofers for each speaker. But where the Summit has it all over the Klipschorn is the depth and tightness of the bass. In fact the bass is truly outstanding. Moving further up the frequency range, things start to become more competitive. Both speakers are capable of amazing resolution, despite people criticising the Klipschorn in the past for glossing over fine musical detail. Well... take it from me, these 60 year old ladies can hold their own with the Summits - particularly in the all important midrange. The Summits move ahead of the Klipschorn in the reproduction of the upper frequencies. Cymbals on the Summits really 'shimmer', whereas the Klipschorn are more reticent. Also I feel the Klipschorn is a little more inclined to reproduce the 'S's as a "Shhh'. The Martin Logan’s are less inclined to sibilance. The winner here? Well, it was very hard to call. In the sound quality stakes, both speakers were amazing performers. I think maybe the Summits had the edge. But it's very subjective, isn't it? I look for different things than someone else might. Maybe if I used a different recording, I may have formed a different view.

So I walked away from this amazing chance to compare both top flight loudspeakers in awe at what the Klipschorn can still achieve. The latest revision of the Klipschorn should be even better with the introduction of better wall sealing and maybe a fully closed back for next year.

Yeah, I know. You guys are probably wondering where this story is going. Did I buy the Klipschorns? Or... did I buy the Summits?

What do you guys reckon?

[SilverSport]

edwinr,

Excellent read...one minor change...AK-4 Klipschorns (as are the rest) are 105dB...Klipschorns are my guess for your purchase.

Bill

[Mike Lindsey]

Well, you're still here so I'm guessing the Khorns! []

Nice writeup, btw.

Mike

Edit: I too love the first RLJ LP. I have it on CD and vinyl, and have been patiently waiting to get the MFSL pressing, as I hear it is one of the best they did. I have seen her twice, btw (the Birchmere in Arlington, Va), and she is magnificent live!

[dbflash]

Great read first thing in the morning.

Always wondered how these two speakers compared and now I have a pretty good idea from your excellent review.

I'm thinking with all the kids and a baby crawling around you ended up with the Khorns.

Looking forward to the continuing story.

Danny

[Colin]

Thank you for the thoughtful review, I of course would have to listen to them in the same room, with a 1-ohm impedance drop, the amplifier for the electrostatics is crucial; it can only be one of the very best, while the Khorns can sound almost as good with only a good quality $5 vintage Harmon Kardon solid-state receiver, love that Rickie Lee Jones disc, what an incredible album! My guess is the Khorn bass is deeper, maybe even smoother in the room, but the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Logans have more of a mid-bass bump that we all like so well,

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How was percussion on the Logans?

How was the 3D sonic holographic imaging?

One reason I like horns better, and there are mnay, is because of their size, they sell very cheaply on the used market.

I heard the top of the line Logans, but not in comparison with other speakers:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0902/deprecating.htm

yes, nice to read on a lazy Friday morning, when the forum is usually so dead

[psg]

How long must we wait before you tell us?

I'll guess you bought KHorns because the ML didn't sound sufficiently better then the KHorns to overcome the placement issues. Just a guess.

[edwinr]

The Summits are the first Martin Logan's I've heard that sound 'together'. The Monolith's, an earlier high-end speaker offer a big sound like the Klipschorns. But unfortunately they are muddy in the bass. The Klipschorn is a superior speaker here. The Summits, however, avoid the midbass hump that earlier ML's suffered from by virtue of an active bass module that crosses over to the electrostatic panel at 270 hz. Also the Summits feature 25hz and 50hz attentuation or boost to help smooth out in-room bass problems.

The Summits reproduce percussion to a very high standard, displaying excellent dynamics. For example, the snare is reproduced with a sharp 'thwack' whereas many other speakers mute the transients so that you hear a dull tap. The Klipschorn has the edge in ths department though. There are very few speakers I've ever heard (except La Scalas) that can properly reproduce a snare.

[edwinr]

Anyhow... I bought the Summits.

Why? Because when I left the store I told the salesman I 'd go home and think about the Klipschorns - which were store demo models. So the next day some geezer went in to the store and bought them. so I missed out. The store owner refuse to give me the guy's address because he's worried I might go and visit him... LOL!!!!

No matter. I'm having fun with these. Here's a pic straight out of the box. I've since moved them to the other side of the room where they sound better. You can see my Heresys tucked away in the corner - they're now my surround speakers when I watch movies.

[edwinr]

Here's a pic of the back. Note the bi wiring facility and the controls for adjusting the bass.

[Parrot]

Edwin,

You should have given everyone 24 hours to guess! Oh well, a lot of people--the ones who read only the initial post and nothing that follows--will keep on guessing anyway.

You're obviously a bloke who thinks for himself, opting not to re-purchase Klipschorns and instead going for something entirely different.

[JohnA]

I auditioned a pair of ML SL-3000s that look remarkably like those you pictured. My forst reaction was they sounded like my Klipsch, but with a stereo image that was a room and a half wide and a room deep. Like you I eventually noticed the bass was not that clean, but I'd gladly have a pair in my room.

You made a good choice.

[psg]

Anyhow... I bought the Summits.

Hope you don't get to post about them in this thread:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/788820.aspx

[]

(I'm sure you won't! Just kidding!)

[Duke Spinner]

s. For example, the snare is reproduced with a sharp 'thwack' whereas many other speakers mute the transients so that you hear a dull tap. The Klipschorn has the edge in ths department though. There are very few speakers I've ever heard (except La Scalas) that can properly reproduce a snare.

Yes, Yes ........Eddie ......

have you read my previous posts ..??

i Must have .....THWACK ....!!!!!!

[edwinr]

Edwin,

You should have given everyone 24 hours to guess! Oh well, a lot of people--the ones who read only the initial post and nothing that follows--will keep on guessing anyway.

You're obviously a bloke who thinks for himself, opting not to re-purchase Klipschorns and instead going for something entirely different.

Yeah, I know Paul. I should've waited. But when I read my post, the anticipation was too much for me... I cracked under the pressure. []

[sheltie dave]

Great job, Edwin. Wish the dealer had given you a choice, but I know you will be happy with the Summits as well. It's good to hear a critical assessment, flaws and all, as it means you already realize and can adjust to the minor design shortcomings.

[Parrot]

Here's a link to the fellow Australian who purchased the demo Klipschorns out from under Edwin:

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=17113

[edwinr]

LOL! Hey Paul, you don't know this guy's address do you...?

[JewishAMerPrince]

Just wait till the Summits get really broken in which occurs somewhere around 300 hours. OBTW, I don't find the Summit to be any more difficult a load than the RF7. My Aragon 3005 does just fine.....

Horn tweeters such as found on the Klipsch and ESL drivers have very different geometry and physics, yet deliver surprisingly similar SQ.

[Jay481985]

Horn tweeters such as found on the Klipsch and ESL drivers have very different geometry and physics, yet deliver surprisingly similar SQ.

but no where near as efficent!

[Chris Robinson]

Here's a link to the fellow Australian who purchased the demo Klipschorns out from under Edwin:

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=17113

"When asked why he has undertaken this time consuming and repetitious task, Les says that he has little else to do now that he has been classed as an invalid, and can no longer work. Besides that, Les enjoys typing and used to be a police typing instructor before his sickness which meant his withdrawal from the force. Typing an average three pages a day with one finger since April 1982, Les said his secret was to type for 20 minutes on the hour, every hour"

Obviously, ole Les Stewart, having labored to complete this task, now has nine fingers and a nub []