Upgrading RF-82

[NoMjolnir]

Gentlemen,

I just got the RF-82 LR and the RC-64. All are crossed over at 80hz with two stacked SVS PB-10's.

I prefer to listen to music in 3.1 using the LCR and subs and this is where I run into problems with my manins.

Ive noticed that the RF-82s will start to distort long before the RC-64 both on movies and music.

What Im thinking is, since I dont need more bass extension, why not replace the 1" titanium driver with the 1.25" found in the top floorstanders and center? I would have to attenuate the 1.25" driver since Im figuring it will have a higher sensitivity rating. Perhaps lower the crossover point as well with some adjustment to the filter.?

It certainly seems to be a cheaper route than paying 2,5 times the amount to get the RF-83's just to get the 1.25" driver.

I call upon your collective input to help me solve my predicament.

One more thing, does anyone have the parameters of the new 1" and 1.25" in addition to the 1.75" of the latter 7 series?

Are there perhaps other compression drivers you would recommend which can work well in the new tractrix horn?

[wuzzzer]

For starters, there's a few ladies here along with the gentlemen (Not me, I'm just standing up for the women). []

What kind of distortion are you hearing? What kind of SPL are you listening to the RF-82s at? What amplification are you using?

[NoMjolnir]

Ladies and gents,

Well, its most noticable with music. I like to crank it up to around 95-100db @ listening position 3.8 meters from the speakers. I bi-amp the RF-82 with a pioneer vsx 1015vsx and the RC-64 is run by an Harman Kardon AVR 7000.

If its not the driver being overdriven it can also be too much reverb? I do have many reflective surfaces in my living room, but I do try to place absorption around when Im doing critical listening.

Currently I have six bass traps 120x60x10 cm but these are placed in corners. The plan is to add another six of which 4 will be placed in first reflection spots.

[Jay481985]

Changing the horn is not as easy as a swap out. Also the cabinet and horn were optimized for what they are. I do not think the horn and compressor driver will fit in the rf82 from the 63/83.

[NoMjolnir]

The horns of the RF-82 and RC-64 are identical in. I havent opened the boxes and checked how the drivers are mounted though.

[Jay481985]

oh duh I forgot.... the rf82 and the rc64 are no longer horns that drop into place. It is part of the baffle or vice versa. So you cannot change the horn but you may change the compression driver. But I do not know if the horn dimensions are the same.

[NoMjolnir]

Yes, I only want to change the compression driver. Ive talked to my dealer about getting spare 1.25" drivers, just waiting to hear what they cost.

Not too much response to my thread. I guess that means that either:

a - my upgrade idea is moronic and impossible to implement with any success,

or

b - its a tricky question which requires more technical knowledge of the two different drivers than most possess.

Thanks for the response so far guys.

Are the RF-82's supposed to perform ~100db, on music at 3.5 meters to listening position, or am I driving them too hard?

[Jay481985]

I think its tricky cause the many people have the older reference series and not the newer IV.

Also it should be able to do 100 db fine at 3.5 meters though that is admitedly loud from that far away.

[Fish]

Before you spend any more money on after effects I'd audition a different avr(not meant to offend).I'ts only my opinion but an HK635 drives my 83's to 110db with ease,clarity and authority from 4 meters.

[NoMjolnir]

"not meant to offend"

No offense taken.

You make a valid point. I could try the AVR7000 as power amplifier for the fronts and let the Pio drive only the center. The HK is a beast and should theoretically provide more juice than the slimmer Pio(wpc ratings doesnt mean much and I know the HK has a larger power supply based on weight alone). Another route would be some nice class D mono blocks or transistor based power amplification ala Rotel.

Personally I think there might also be an issue with ringing because of all the reflective surfaces. Ill find out when I build more bass traps. Four of them will be used at first reflection points.

[Spkrdctr]

What kind of distortion are you hearing? Also, what are your room dimensions? Thanks for the info.

[audiobliss69]

As someone else said, I would change my source of amplification by adding a separate amplifier. I'm sure the HK is stouter and would prove to be a good piece to use on the mains for a test, but I would still look for some separate amplification at some point down the road.

[NoMjolnir]

What kind of distortion are you hearing? Also, what are your room dimensions? Thanks for the info.

When I listen to music in 2.1 at loud volumes the sound is muddy, undefineable and shrill.

Don't get me wrong, Its great sound, it just has these elements.

As I switch to pro logic music in 3.1 with the RC-64 these artefacts are greatly reduced but still present. Strange thing is that I hear the symptoms at lower levels as well, just not as profound.

Still, I have to add that Klipsch are the best speakers Ive heard in my home. I've had B&W, Dali, good DIY kit etc.

Regarding amplification, what would be "enough" for the RF-82's with their 150w power handling? Im a bit limited to brands since I live in Norway so Outlaw f.ex is not available.

[Raider]

Yes, I only want to change the compression driver. Ive talked to my dealer about getting spare 1.25" drivers, just waiting to hear what they cost.

Not too much response to my thread. I guess that means that either:

a - my upgrade idea is moronic and impossible to implement with any success,

or

b - its a tricky question which requires more technical knowledge of the two different drivers than most possess.

Thanks for the response so far guys.

Are the RF-82's supposed to perform ~100db, on music at 3.5 meters to listening position, or am I driving them too hard?

I would say that it would be mostly "b". Sure you can change out the driver itself and mount any driver that will fit in its place. But its a crap shoot as to how it might turn out.

It might not work well for a variety of reasons. For instance the efficiency of the replacement unit might be different, causing the bass/treble balance to be off. Also the impedance might be different as well.

But most important are the issues surrounding the crossover. Each crossover is specifically designed around the characteristics of the two drivers, their relationship to each other, within the context of the specific enclosure parameters. For instance, the slope of the crossover, expressed in db per octave, will vary from driver to driver and will be selected to work in harmony with both driver's natural physical rolloff characteristics. Slopes may also be selected to limit potential damage to the specific driver.

Further, sometimes notch filters may be employed in the crossover design to counteract any resonances in the driver (they all have them to some degree; all objects have a fundamental resonance) and/or in the driver/horn combination.

A replacement driver is not likely to be identical to the driver it replaces in any of these ways, and certainly not in all of them. Many manufacturers make very small changes in their drivers to change a given characteristic, and drivers are often built to spec under an OEM arrangement; Klipsch probably does with at least some of their drivers. Go to http://www.tymphany.com/ and check out how many different tweeters just one OEM manufacturer makes, and notice how different the characteristics may be even between drivers of apparently identical size and design.

Also search here on DeanG's mods to the RF7, He makes some very, very small changes in the crossover design, and selection of components, and it renders a very different sonic signature to the speaker. So making any change to the driver/crossover/enclosure balance in a design is potentially frought with potential problems.

Lastly, consider that pricing structures for speaker companies are based on manufacturing/distributor/dealer markups, necessary for all to stay in business, and the price of speakers is directly proportionate to the cost of the components. Given the price differential between say the 82 and 83, there is alot more than just the cost of the tweeters apparently involved. Since the cabinets are not substantially different (other than the veneer) in their basic construction, I think there may be substantial differences in the crossovers that may not be readily apparent.

Hope this helps you with your decision, FWIW.

[DrWho]

Sounds more like an amplifier issue than a speaker issue.

An overdriven speaker will "fart" and "flutter" and all that crap. An

overdriven amp will sound very foward and harsh - moreso as you crank

it up. You mentioned that you are bi-amping...how exactly are you

accomplishing this? If you're not using a seperate active crossover

then you might consider just running the speakers with a single amp

instead - there's a huge slew of issues you can get into by "fools

biamping" (basically using two amps, but still using the internal

crossovers). At least for troubleshooting sake I would run

everything off the reciever for now.

Another possible issue is the integration between your subs and mains.

As you bring the volume up the room acoustics become dramatically

worse, but this would definetly explain what you're hearing at lower

volumes. I wrote an article describing a way to dial in subs by ear,

that way I don't have to repeat myself a bunch of times []

http://www.klipschcorner.com/Articles.aspx?guid=feb5d669-1513-426d-a8fc-29f8aa90869f

One thing I need to add to that article is that you can adjust the

distance setting for the subwoofer to deviate from the actual in

situations where you don't have a phase knob. By adjusting the

time-delay you effectively adjust the phase of the system as well,

allowing you to get rid of any phase cancellations you might be

experiencing.

Hope this helps.

[NoMjolnir]

@Raider

I see, not as easy as I first imagined at all. I might just buy the RF-83.

@DrWho

Im bi-amp'ing with the Pio 1015vsx, the surround back channels are used in addition to front L R.

Ive measured the response and adjusted the crossover so the sub/speakers are in phase. Interesting read though!

Thanks for all the response fellow Klipschters. I'll try som room treatments and borrow a good power amp to see if it helps.

Appreciate your input.

[Jay481985]

wait I remember that the pioneer 1015tx does not get loud until you rech near -20 -10 so it might be fine?

[NoMjolnir]

wait I remember that the pioneer 1015tx does not get loud until you rech near -20 -10 so it might be fine?

Well, With left and right channel at 0db and center at + 0.5db I play movies at -15db and music up to -9db approximately.

[DrWho]

Im bi-amp'ing with the Pio 1015vsx, the surround back channels are used in addition to front L R.

There's your problem.

[NoMjolnir]

Really? I didnt know that. Why would they bother to add the feature if it's detrimental to the sound quality?

Never thought about this, but I'm guessing they want to appeal to 5.1 users since those are predominant and people usually have tower fronts. Good marketing trick I guess.

Well, one learn new things every day.

Im going to try the HK as power amp for the fronts tomorrow. The center will be driven by the pioneer in this scenario to spread the work load.

I will also experiment with toe-in. Right now the fronts are pointed directly at the sweetspot, I can attenuate som hi freq with less toe-in.

On another note and to put my issue in perspective, I want to give you one concrete example. With every other setup I've had really harsh S sounds in vocals and electric guitars. The Klipsch setup however has reduced almost all harshness to vocals, but the higher registry of electric guitars are still annoying, but less so.