White01L Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Last night I noticed that the Belle on the left side didn't sound as good as the other (though bass sounds fine), I switched receiver to mono to see if that would produce same sound from both, still left side sounded a bit down. I tried to "ear" test the left speaker to determine if all drivers were working, from what I can tell all drivers are producing (just not like the right side). Tonight I am going to disconnect the speaker wires from the receiver and swap sides. If that doesn't resolve the problem (or identify the receiver as the problem) I am going to the look at the original AK x-overs (but they are 33 years old) and loosen and retightn connections. Any other things I can do to assist in determining where the problem lies? btw I am not an electrical engineer, so don't get to deep with this please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 White, The Belle didn't use the "AK" series networks. They had the "AA" then the "AB" then the AB-2 and AB-3. If the networks are not both the same type, that could be why they sound different. It may just be the simple fact that even a single speaker will sound different when moved to a different place in a room. This is probably the real reasone the two sound different. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardP Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 While you should definitely check receiver connections, the most likely culprit is the crossover; at 33 yrs old, they are very likely to be out of spec. The capacitors do go bad gradually, and it is surely time for them to be refurbished. As a fellow Okie, we are lucky, in that Bob Crites is just over in Russellville, Arkansas. He refurbs crossovers and sells new ones, and is a scholar and a gentleman of highest integrity. He has helped me with both my Belle and Cornwall crossovers. If you find that the receiver connections are sound, and the lower output level stays in the same speaker, swap the crossovers next. It is a small pain, but you can disconnect each driver from its respective crosssover, then unscrew the crossover board from the speaker cabinet. Make sure you reconnect the drivers to the crossovers correctly; hopefully, your crossover labels are still legible, and the wires from each driver are still marked pos and neg. On mine, one wire from each driver has a "dash/stripe;" presumably this is the positive. If the lower output follows one crossover (i.e., it's now in the other speaker), then there is your answer. Bob was able to refurbish mine and send them back in only a week, although the schedule depends on his current workload. If you need to send them, just email Bob through this forum. His prices are quite reasonable. EDIT: Now seeing Al K's response. Coincidentally, when I bought my Belles (used), they had AL crossovers, which were intended for LaScalas. Who is going around putting the wrong crossovers in Belle's?[*-)] I actually ended up buying Bob's new AA models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White01L Posted October 18, 2006 Author Share Posted October 18, 2006 thanks for the reply, Al. Have your web sight up and was looking at your networks. How long do these origianl networks last? Though I could (frequently am) and probably are mistaken, I thought I had noticed that they had AK networks in them when I first got them. I will look again tonight when I spend a long time with them trying to determine what I am or possibly am not hearing. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White01L Posted October 18, 2006 Author Share Posted October 18, 2006 Thanks Richard, Great idea, I hadn't thought to try to move the networks from one speaker to another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 The good news is that all the drivers are working. You are on right track by swapping the left and right channels to see if it is the signal feeding the speaker. My suggestion is to then place the speakers right next to each other and feed them a mono signal. This will minimize (but not fully eliminate) a placement or room interaction. Use the balance control to pan between the two. Other than saying that it is not the bass, we really don't know what the problem is. What sounds different. Is the sound scratchy, is it worse at high levels, does it sound "hollow". Did this recently happen or was it only recently noticed? These questions should be addressed before you start swpping networks etc. Good luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Wiring! Wiring! Wiring! check the connections, especially screw downs and friction-types (push-on tabs, etc), which are very susceptable to changes in humidity and temperature. If not that, then go for solder connections, which are susceptable to oxidation. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 White, Hope you've had a good result with your troubleshooting. Yep, those crossover caps have drifted off spec in their lifetime. You would be amazed, IMO, at how good your speakers would sound with fresh caps in the old crossover. Of course, you are looking at some very fine crossovers on Al K's website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 White, The original networks are good for 10 or 15 years, then the caps could be sick. I suspect the new ones I build should last that long too. At least mine have no oil to leak out! I really doubt your Belles have AK networks. Part of the AK is inside the woofer hatch of the Khorn. It wouldn't be an odd thing to tranfer AK networks from a Khorn to a Belle. It boarders on what you might call mechanical sillyness! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White01L Posted October 19, 2006 Author Share Posted October 19, 2006 I will know more this weekend when I have block of time to really check this out. I will post what I find out. I was listening to Revolver at moderate volume when the difference really jumped at me, thought at first it was because of what was done with "stereo" imaging back in the early days of stereo. But did enough to determine that that wasn't it. I dont think room placement has much to do with difference, as they are pretty much placed simetrically (spelling i know) in the room. This might have been coming on gradually, as I notice that I have the balance on the receiver favoring the weak side. (note that when I switched to mono the sound output was still weaker in the one side (No I still have not ruled out ill performing receiver, but I will be checking that out this weekend)) I had the receiver serviced a year or so ago in Knoxville for left channel signal dropout (to zero), had forgot about this, so this will definately have to be considered. One speaker just doesn't seem to have the same output volume level as the other speaker. But the lower frequencies don't seem to have the same diminished output level. I am definately hearing good (but diminished) signal (compared with other speaker) from the one speakers mid and tweet (from what I can tell) by getting close to drivers playing at much lower level than the moderate level they were at when I was just listening. Also to be considered are the 49 year old ears I am testing them with, but I think the ears are working adequately as I don't notice the same effect when listening to the (1983) k-horns in the other room. Thanks for the input all, I am looking forward to having these speakers back to full operation soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White01L Posted October 20, 2006 Author Share Posted October 20, 2006 I stand corrected, the networks in my Belles are AA. Last night 1st test was to reverse the left / right on the back of the receiver. WTF, both channels sound fine, sure didn't expect that. Listened to couple of tunes, no problems, even had my wife listen and she didn't notice any difference. Had even reset the balance to center. Had my wife switch receiver between stereo and mono and see if she could tell difference in speaker output, no problems detected. She did say she liked the stereo sound better (duh). Ok so I switched the speaker connections on the back of the receiver back to correct left / right and listened again, I couldn't hear the same issue I had heard the other night. I likely will replace the networks with newer after winter holiday. Thanks to all that replied p.s. just found interesting thread, "rebuild AA's or upgrade". kind of sounds where I am heading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 It's not the crossover, it has nothing to do with the crossover! (it would not "go away" if it was the crossover). It is the wiring connection(s) that was changed. (Like I said). It's a good idea every few months to disconnect and reseat all of the wiring connections (internal wiring, crossover, speaker cabling, and interconnects). DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White01L Posted October 20, 2006 Author Share Posted October 20, 2006 D-Man, I believe you nailed it. I knew that periodically that very maintenance you said needed to be done. I admit it had not been performed reguarly with that system setup. The reason I am considering a network upgrade is these are old, I have a little spare cash, I really like these speakers, can they be made to sound better! Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Your AA crossovers are old enough that the caps are bad. Getting new caps in there will be a good thing to do. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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